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10th July 2014, 10:10 AM

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Originally Posted by zidd View Post
iska koi usoolan jawaab nahi hai..matlab koi prescription nahi hai.
hum precedents par hi chal sakte hai, misalo par ,aur ustado ke kahne par.

to nichor ye ke publication ke liye ghazal 5 sher ki ho minimum.

koi maximum limit nahi...purane ustaad maaante the ki jitne qaaafiye hai sab bhar diye jaye..unka maan.na tha ki ye kaha nahi ja sakta ki kaun sa sher unki pehchaan banega...so badi badi ghazal aati thi.

ab jaise printing technology ne writing badal diya aur camera ne painting badal diya, recordings ne ghazal badal diya, specially no. of sher.

ye baat bilkul sahi hai ki tahat me aur tarannnum me sher ka meaning change ho jata hai kyuki rhythm adds to the meaning of the sher.
uska reason ye hai ki hum padte waqt pause le sakte hai kuch samjhne ke liye ,gaur karne ke liye, magar kuch sun rahe hai to ,zahir hai aaap apne mind ko pause nahi de sakte, kyuki singer to gata hi rahega.....that may also be the reason that we like and listen to the same ghazal many times, coz it may give a slightly diff nuance every time.

aaj ke fast mahaul me patience kam hai.islye listerer fatigue na ho -ye khayaal rakkha jata hai , isliye ghazal aur choti ho gayi, the stress is on quality .

agar lambi beher ki ghazal hai to mostly sirf 3 sher hi record honge.
agar medium beher hai to maybe 4.
bahut choti beher , specially small hindi meters hai to 5-6.

but the average norm seems to be 4 ashaar now.

but there is hardly anything fixed. what i said are mean figures...

regards
Zidd saab,
gustaakhi maaf.. magar kahi.n pe toh maine padha hai ki ghazal me.n maximum 25 ashaar hi hone chaahiye... toh aisa koee niyam hai jo aapkii nazar me.n bhii aaya ho?

regards.



ख़ुदा परेशां तेरी बला से तेरे सितम से तेरे अधम से
अगर हसीँ होते ज़ुल्म तेरे तू भी तो कुछ शर्मसार होता



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10th July 2014, 10:51 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by aadeil View Post
Zidd saab,
gustaakhi maaf.. magar kahi.n pe toh maine padha hai ki ghazal me.n maximum 25 ashaar hi hone chaahiye... toh aisa koee niyam hai jo aapkii nazar me.n bhii aaya ho?

regards.
bhai maine ghazal ki history ke hisaab se ,interpreet kiya hai.

ab mujhe kahi koi thos usool nazar nahi aaya is sawaal ka...

jo purana chalan hai , jo naya chalan hai aur kin suraton me aur kyo - ye maine in breif batane ki koshish ki hai.

sdc par ye bahs ek baar hui thi..jaha different views the...uski summary ye thi ke minimum 5 aur maximum 27 ashaar hone chaiye.

koi ustad ki kutab kuch kahti hai aur dusre ustaad ki kuch aur..aur ek dusre par objection bhi uThahti hai...

magar mere ghazal history ke safar me mujhe koi classical usool nahi mila
. balki is sawaal ko address tak nahi kiya hai (talking classical history)

magar ye to zarur ho sakta hai ki kuch nugget kahi rah gaye ho...aur mai encyclopedia to hu nahi...agar aapke paas koi sanad/daleel /misaal/deduction/reduction hai ..to rakhiye usko yaha.
is thread ka maqsad to yahi hai.baal ki khaal nikalna

Last edited by zidd; 10th July 2014 at 10:54 AM..
   
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10th July 2014, 11:20 AM

bahot bahot shukriyaa Ziddd saahab aapke ehsaasaat aur tazurbaa hamaare saath baanTne ke liye....

ab baat puraani chalii hai to ek puraana sawaal meri jaanib se bhi arz hai...

kalam Muzaqqar hai ke muannas (male or female in terms of shayri)... ??

iska jawaab abhi tak mere liye pecheedaa hai... aap mushkil hal karenge to badee mehrbaani hogi..

Shukriyaa

Shaad....


Shaad...

Last edited by sameer'shaad'; 10th July 2014 at 11:23 AM..
   
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10th July 2014, 11:45 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by zidd View Post
bhai maine ghazal ki history ke hisaab se ,interpreet kiya hai.

ab mujhe kahi koi thos usool nazar nahi aaya is sawaal ka...

jo purana chalan hai , jo naya chalan hai aur kin suraton me aur kyo - ye maine in breif batane ki koshish ki hai.

sdc par ye bahs ek baar hui thi..jaha different views the...uski summary ye thi ke minimum 5 aur maximum 27 ashaar hone chaiye.

koi ustad ki kutab kuch kahti hai aur dusre ustaad ki kuch aur..aur ek dusre par objection bhi uThahti hai...

magar mere ghazal history ke safar me mujhe koi classical usool nahi mila
. balki is sawaal ko address tak nahi kiya hai (talking classical history)

magar ye to zarur ho sakta hai ki kuch nugget kahi rah gaye ho...aur mai encyclopedia to hu nahi...agar aapke paas koi sanad/daleel /misaal/deduction/reduction hai ..to rakhiye usko yaha.
is thread ka maqsad to yahi hai.baal ki khaal nikalna
Zidd saab,
bahas nahi mehez ilm ke madde nazar yeh savaal kiya hai kyu.n ki mai.n khud bhii sahi javaab kii talaash me.n hoo.n.
koii aisa thos (confirmed) reply kahi nahi mila hai. Minimum ashaar 5 hone chaahiye, uss pe bhii kaafi alag alag raa.ay dekhne ko milii hai.. jaise kahi.n koii kehta hai ki minimum 7 ashaar hone chaahiye, magar zyaadaatar logo.n ne 5 ashaar minimum hone kii baat kahi hai.

uljhan yeh hai ki, maximum ashaar ke baare me.n bahot si alaga alag raa.ay dekhne ko milti hai, jaise kahi.n 15, 25 aur jaise aapne bataaya 27 ashaar kii baat kahi gayee hai. Toh kaee logo.n ne maximum ashaar ke baare me.n kuch thos nahi.n kahaa hai.

aur aisee koii link bhii nahi hai jo ki koii thos baat kehti ho. So it's difficult to come to a conclusion.

vaise world record ke liye Pakistani shaayar Pirzaada Aashique Keranvi ne 30,000 misre (verses) yaani ki 15,000 ashaar kii ghazal likhii hai, par yeh mehez ek World record ke liye ho sakti hai. dusrii ek misaal hai, Ghairat Batalavi kii 1,495 ashaar wali ghazal. Toh kya iise ghazal maana jaaye?

Regards



ख़ुदा परेशां तेरी बला से तेरे सितम से तेरे अधम से
अगर हसीँ होते ज़ुल्म तेरे तू भी तो कुछ शर्मसार होता



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zidd
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10th July 2014, 12:47 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by aadeil View Post
Zidd saab,
bahas nahi mehez ilm ke madde nazar yeh savaal kiya hai kyu.n ki mai.n khud bhii sahi javaab kii talaash me.n hoo.n.
koii aisa thos (confirmed) reply kahi nahi mila hai. Minimum ashaar 5 hone chaahiye, uss pe bhii kaafi alag alag raa.ay dekhne ko milii hai.. jaise kahi.n koii kehta hai ki minimum 7 ashaar hone chaahiye, magar zyaadaatar logo.n ne 5 ashaar minimum hone kii baat kahi hai.

uljhan yeh hai ki, maximum ashaar ke baare me.n bahot si alaga alag raa.ay dekhne ko milti hai, jaise kahi.n 15, 25 aur jaise aapne bataaya 27 ashaar kii baat kahi gayee hai. Toh kaee logo.n ne maximum ashaar ke baare me.n kuch thos nahi.n kahaa hai.

aur aisee koii link bhii nahi hai jo ki koii thos baat kehti ho. So it's difficult to come to a conclusion.

vaise world record ke liye Pakistani shaayar Pirzaada Aashique Keranvi ne 30,000 misre (verses) yaani ki 15,000 ashaar kii ghazal likhii hai, par yeh mehez ek World record ke liye ho sakti hai. dusrii ek misaal hai, Ghairat Batalavi kii 1,495 ashaar wali ghazal. Toh kya iise ghazal maana jaaye?

Regards
bhai , maine mera point of view clearly kaha hai ki classical ghazal ki history me aisa koi usool mujhe nahi mila.
aur maine hundreds og crossreference kiye hai ..ye bhi nahi ke kisi ek author ya book ke hisaab se kah raha hu.

aapne aapki misaal darz karke khud sabit kiya hai ki iska koi rule nahi hai.

aap zara ab shaad sahab ke sawaal par gaur kijiye
mai phir aata hu...
kuch naye logo ka nazariya dekhe pahle..
   
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10th July 2014, 02:52 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by zidd View Post
aap zara ab shaad sahab ke sawaal par gaur kijiye
mai phir aata hu...
kuch naye logo ka nazariya dekhe pahle..
ji Ziddsaab,

aapka huqm sar aa.nkho.n par janaab...

Quote:
Originally Posted by sameer'shaad' View Post
bahot bahot shukriyaa Ziddd saahab aapke ehsaasaat aur tazurbaa hamaare saath baanTne ke liye....

ab baat puraani chalii hai to ek puraana sawaal meri jaanib se bhi arz hai...

kalam Muzaqqar hai ke muannas (male or female in terms of shayri)... ??

iska jawaab abhi tak mere liye pecheedaa hai... aap mushkil hal karenge to badee mehrbaani hogi..

Shukriyaa

Shaad....
Shoaib bhai,
bahot hi pechida magar interesting word leke aaye hai.n

pehle toh clarity maangta hoo.n ki shaayad aapka ishaara qalam (pen) kii taraf hai.

toh pehle toh sahi lafz hoga qalam (क़लम, قلم)..
yeh ek arabic lafz hai aur uska literal meaning hota hai (to cut from a reed or cutting of trees or plants). purane zamaane me.n pen ya pencil peD kii shaaKH ko kaat kar banaaya jaata tha, shaayad wahi se yeh lafz pen ke liye bhii istemaal hone lagaa.

Arabic me.n qalam ko muzaqqar hi gina jaata hai.
magar, aapka savaal iis liye jaayez hai kyu.n ki ghazal aur nazm me.n yeh dono hi jins me.n paaya gayaa hai..

kuch zyaada examples nahi hai.. muzaqqar ke.. magar ek/do dhund nikaale hai.n
tehreer main aa jaye agar lafz judai,
mehsoos yeh hota hai qalam Toot rahaa hai - NM

Alamma Iqbaal ke qalaam se kuch examples..
Na tujh se garz hey na teri surat se garz
Hum tou Bananay Walay ka qalam dekhtay hain

Safar-e-Shaam likha aur qalam torr diya
Gham-e-Sarkar likha aur qalam torr diya



qalam kii misaal kii ghazal toh bahot hai magar mushkeel yeh hai ki unme se kaii me.n jins kii pehchaan bataanaa mushkiil ho jaataa hai..

jaise yeh Ghalib saab kii ghazal se.. (hazaaro.n khwaishe.n aisii)
magar likhwaaye koee usko KHat, to hamse likhawaaye
huee subah aur ghar se kaan par rakhkar qalam nikle

Hum parwarash-e-loh-o-qalam karte rahenge
Jo dil pe guzarti hai raqam karte rahenge - Faiz Ahmed Faiz

ek mashhoor Hindi gaanaa
kaagaz, qalam, davaat la, likh doo.n dil tere naam karu.n

muannas jins me.n istemaal kiya gayaa...
phoolo.n ke ra.ng se, dil kii qalam se
hamne likhii roz baate.n

aur bhii logo.n se apnii apnii raa.ay manzoor hai.

Regards



ख़ुदा परेशां तेरी बला से तेरे सितम से तेरे अधम से
अगर हसीँ होते ज़ुल्म तेरे तू भी तो कुछ शर्मसार होता



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sameer'shaad'
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10th July 2014, 03:45 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by aadeil View Post
ji Ziddsaab,

aapka huqm sar aa.nkho.n par janaab...


Shoaib bhai,
bahot hi pechida magar interesting word leke aaye hai.n

pehle toh clarity maangta hoo.n ki shaayad aapka ishaara qalam (pen) kii taraf hai.

toh pehle toh sahi lafz hoga qalam (क़लम, قلم)..
yeh ek arabic lafz hai aur uska literal meaning hota hai (to cut from a reed or cutting of trees or plants). purane zamaane me.n pen ya pencil peD kii shaaKH ko kaat kar banaaya jaata tha, shaayad wahi se yeh lafz pen ke liye bhii istemaal hone lagaa.

Arabic me.n qalam ko muzaqqar hi gina jaata hai.
magar, aapka savaal iis liye jaayez hai kyu.n ki ghazal aur nazm me.n yeh dono hi jins me.n paaya gayaa hai..

kuch zyaada examples nahi hai.. muzaqqar ke.. magar ek/do dhund nikaale hai.n
tehreer main aa jaye agar lafz judai,
mehsoos yeh hota hai qalam Toot rahaa hai - NM

Alamma Iqbaal ke qalaam se kuch examples..
Na tujh se garz hey na teri surat se garz
Hum tou Bananay Walay ka qalam dekhtay hain

Safar-e-Shaam likha aur qalam torr diya
Gham-e-Sarkar likha aur qalam torr diya



qalam kii misaal kii ghazal toh bahot hai magar mushkeel yeh hai ki unme se kaii me.n jins kii pehchaan bataanaa mushkiil ho jaataa hai..

jaise yeh Ghalib saab kii ghazal se.. (hazaaro.n khwaishe.n aisii)
magar likhwaaye koee usko KHat, to hamse likhawaaye
huee subah aur ghar se kaan par rakhkar qalam nikle

Hum parwarash-e-loh-o-qalam karte rahenge
Jo dil pe guzarti hai raqam karte rahenge - Faiz Ahmed Faiz

ek mashhoor Hindi gaanaa
kaagaz, qalam, davaat la, likh doo.n dil tere naam karu.n

muannas jins me.n istemaal kiya gayaa...
phoolo.n ke ra.ng se, dil kii qalam se
hamne likhii roz baate.n

aur bhii logo.n se apnii apnii raa.ay manzoor hai.

Regards


Aadeil saahab jee meraa ishaara qalam ki taraf thaa shayaad ke typo ki wajah se aapko samajhne me pareshaani huiii.. muaafi talab karta hoon...

aapne jo baaten likhin uske liye bahot shukriyaa aapkaa... magar na jaane kyun aapka ishaara clear hota huaa mahsoos nahi ho raha hai.....

kuch log bahot hi strongly recommend karte hain ke Qalam should be muzakkar , magar aapne hi apnii tahreer me ise muannas bhii kaha hai..... mudda yahi hai ke zyaaadatar ise muannas (feminine) bhii istemaal me laya gaya hai, magar aap uski lughat ya sanad acceptable amount me nahi diye.... agar misalen mil jaatin ustaadon ki to behtaree hotii...

raahi baat gaaano(songs) ki to wo unacceptable maanta hoon main... bcoz songss koi rules follow nahi karte , na behrbandii ma na hi misaalon me....

aapke zyadatar ishaare us taraf jaate hain jahaan koi conclusion nazar nahi aata.... like ke wo actual me kis tarah se istemaal me laaye gaye hain (masculine or feminine)

baaki aapke ped (tree) ko katne waali information laajawaab lagee... kuch aur misaalen hon to pesh karen jahaan ise muannas me liya gaya ho...


Shaad...
   
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10th July 2014, 04:43 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by sameer'shaad' View Post

aapne jo baaten likhin uske liye bahot shukriyaa aapkaa... magar na jaane kyun aapka ishaara clear hota huaa mahsoos nahi ho raha hai.....

kuch log bahot hi strongly recommend karte hain ke Qalam should be muzakkar , magar aapne hi apnii tahreer me ise muannas bhii kaha hai..... mudda yahi hai ke zyaaadatar ise muannas (feminine) bhii istemaal me laya gaya hai, magar aap uski lughat ya sanad acceptable amount me nahi diye.... agar misalen mil jaatin ustaadon ki to behtaree hotii...

raahi baat gaaano(songs) ki to wo unacceptable maanta hoon main... bcoz songss koi rules follow nahi karte , na behrbandii ma na hi misaalon me....

aapke zyadatar ishaare us taraf jaate hain jahaan koi conclusion nazar nahi aata.... like ke wo actual me kis tarah se istemaal me laaye gaye hain (masculine or feminine)

baaki aapke ped (tree) ko katne waali information laajawaab lagee... kuch aur misaalen hon to pesh karen jahaan ise muannas me liya gaya ho...
Shoaibbhai,

maine pehle hi clear kar diya tha ki arabic lughat ke mutabeek 'qalam' should be masculine.. mere hi post se maine iise niche BLUE me.n highlight kiya hai..
uskii reference ke liye filhaal wiki kii link niche hai
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D9%82%D9%84%D9%85

ab aapne kahaa ki maine iise apnii tehriir me.n muannas bhii kahaa hai (yeh thoda clear kijiye )..

maine jo misaale.n dii hai.n wo muzakkar kii hi dii hai.n aur wo bhii meri khud kii nahi hai.. RED me.n phir se highlight karta hoo.n, niche, aapki clarity ke liye...

peD kaatne wali baat bhii janaab meri khud kii nahi hai rekte/urdu kii lughat me.n aapko yeh mil jaayega
http://rekhta.org/urdudictionary/?lang=1&keyword=qalam



yeh ek arabic lafz hai aur uska literal meaning hota hai (to cut from a reed or cutting of trees or plants). purane zamaane me.n pen ya pencil peD kii shaaKH ko kaat kar banaaya jaata tha, shaayad wahi se yeh lafz pen ke liye bhii istemaal hone lagaa.

Arabic me.n qalam ko muzaqqar hi gina jaata hai.
magar, aapka savaal iis liye jaayez hai kyu.n ki ghazal aur nazm me.n yeh dono hi jins me.n paaya gayaa hai..

kuch zyaada examples nahi hai.. muzaqqar ke.. magar ek/do dhund nikaale hai.n
tehreer main aa jaye agar lafz judai,
mehsoos yeh hota hai qalam Toot rahaa hai - NM

Alamma Iqbaal ke qalaam se kuch examples..
Na tujh se garz hey na teri surat se garz
Hum tou Bananay Walay ka qalam dekhtay hain

Safar-e-Shaam likha aur qalam torr diya
Gham-e-Sarkar likha aur qalam torr diya


qalam kii misaal kii ghazal toh bahot hai magar mushkeel yeh hai ki unme se kaii me.n jins kii pehchaan bataanaa mushkiil ho jaataa hai..

jaise yeh Ghalib saab kii ghazal se.. (hazaaro.n khwaishe.n aisii)
magar likhwaaye koee usko KHat, to hamse likhawaaye
huee subah aur ghar se kaan par rakhkar qalam nikle

Hum parwarash-e-loh-o-qalam karte rahenge
Jo dil pe guzarti hai raqam karte rahenge - Faiz Ahmed Faiz

ek mashhoor Hindi gaanaa
kaagaz, qalam, davaat la, likh doo.n dil tere naam karu.n

muannas jins me.n istemaal kiya gayaa...
phoolo.n ke ra.ng se, dil kii qalam se
hamne likhii roz baate.n

aur bhii logo.n se apnii apnii raa.ay manzoor hai.

Regards
[/QUOTE]

thoDa aur waqt dijiye, aur mushaqqat karne ke liye
kyuN ki kahi.n pe hindi dictionary me.n maine uskii reference dekhi hai jahaa.n use feminine bhii kahaa gayaa hai..

aur jo geet maine apne example me.n diyaa hai.. muannas ke liye, bhai woh mera khud ka gaanaa toh nahi hai
wo ek mash-hoor gaanaa hai, jise Kishor da ne apnii aawaaz bhii dii hai aur uskii dhun S. D. Burman saab ne banaayee thii



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10th July 2014, 04:59 PM

Aadeil bhai,

shukriyaa jo aapne itne references share kiye.... and as per your previous comment

aapka savaal iis liye jaayez hai kyu.n ki ghazal aur nazm me.n yeh dono hi jins me.n paaya gayaa hai

main unhi ki misaalen aapse maang raha tha.... magar chaliye koi baat nahi.... main hi aapko chand misre suna deta hoon...

ko_ii kaho ki haath qalam kis tarah hue
kyuu.N ruk ga_ii qalam kii ravaanii ko_ii likho... faraz

bewafaa likhate haiN wo apnii qalam se mujh ko
ye wo qismat kaa likhaa hai jo miTaa bhii na sakooN [Ameer Minai]


mera sawaal is pecho kham isi kashmakash ko door karne ka tha... ummeed hai baaki shoraa bhi khaaskar ke zidd/ ufaq / zarraa saahab is muaaamle me kuch pesh karen to bahtaree hogii....

aadeil saahab aaapko agar kuch sanad mile to bataaiyega....

shukriyaa

Shaad...


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10th July 2014, 05:39 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by sameer'shaad' View Post
Aadeil bhai,

shukriyaa jo aapne itne references share kiye.... and as per your previous comment

aapka savaal iis liye jaayez hai kyu.n ki ghazal aur nazm me.n yeh dono hi jins me.n paaya gayaa hai

main unhi ki misaalen aapse maang raha tha.... magar chaliye koi baat nahi.... main hi aapko chand misre suna deta hoon...

ko_ii kaho ki haath qalam kis tarah hue
kyuu.N ruk ga_ii qalam kii ravaanii ko_ii likho... faraz

bewafaa likhate haiN wo apnii qalam se mujh ko
ye wo qismat kaa likhaa hai jo miTaa bhii na sakooN [Ameer Minai]


mera sawaal is pecho kham isi kashmakash ko door karne ka tha... ummeed hai baaki shoraa bhi khaaskar ke zidd/ ufaq / zarraa saahab is muaaamle me kuch pesh karen to bahtaree hogii....

aadeil saahab aaapko agar kuch sanad mile to bataaiyega....

shukriyaa

Shaad...
Shoaib bhai,

aapka bahot bahot shukriya...
ji mai.n bhii koshish kar rahaa hoo.n ki kuch aur misaal mile jisme ki 'qalam' lafz ko muannas ke tehat istemaal kiya ho.. dhundte dhundte, baar baar Faraaz saab ka hi sher saamne aa jaataa hai



ख़ुदा परेशां तेरी बला से तेरे सितम से तेरे अधम से
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10th July 2014, 05:56 PM

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Originally Posted by aadeil View Post
ji Ziddsaab,

aapka huqm sar aa.nkho.n par janaab...


Shoaib bhai,
bahot hi pechida magar interesting word leke aaye hai.n

pehle toh clarity maangta hoo.n ki shaayad aapka ishaara qalam (pen) kii taraf hai.

toh pehle toh sahi lafz hoga qalam (क़लम, قلم)..
yeh ek arabic lafz hai aur uska literal meaning hota hai (to cut from a reed or cutting of trees or plants). purane zamaane me.n pen ya pencil peD kii shaaKH ko kaat kar banaaya jaata tha, shaayad wahi se yeh lafz pen ke liye bhii istemaal hone lagaa.

Arabic me.n qalam ko muzaqqar hi gina jaata hai.
magar, aapka savaal iis liye jaayez hai kyu.n ki ghazal aur nazm me.n yeh dono hi jins me.n paaya gayaa hai..

kuch zyaada examples nahi hai.. muzaqqar ke.. magar ek/do dhund nikaale hai.n
tehreer main aa jaye agar lafz judai,
mehsoos yeh hota hai qalam Toot rahaa hai - NM

Alamma Iqbaal ke qalaam se kuch examples..
Na tujh se garz hey na teri surat se garz
Hum tou Bananay Walay ka qalam dekhtay hain

Safar-e-Shaam likha aur qalam torr diya
Gham-e-Sarkar likha aur qalam torr diya



qalam kii misaal kii ghazal toh bahot hai magar mushkeel yeh hai ki unme se kaii me.n jins kii pehchaan bataanaa mushkiil ho jaataa hai..

jaise yeh Ghalib saab kii ghazal se.. (hazaaro.n khwaishe.n aisii)
magar likhwaaye koee usko KHat, to hamse likhawaaye
huee subah aur ghar se kaan par rakhkar qalam nikle

Hum parwarash-e-loh-o-qalam karte rahenge
Jo dil pe guzarti hai raqam karte rahenge - Faiz Ahmed Faiz

ek mashhoor Hindi gaanaa
kaagaz, qalam, davaat la, likh doo.n dil tere naam karu.n

muannas jins me.n istemaal kiya gayaa...
phoolo.n ke ra.ng se, dil kii qalam se
hamne likhii roz baate.n

aur bhii logo.n se apnii apnii raa.ay manzoor hai.

Regards
wah , adeil sahab wah

claps -claps-claps

aapne sawaal ko bahut acchi tarah se frame kar diya.
waise to mostly jawaab bhi de diya.

ab mai mera yaha primary input dena hu..tafseel se baad me aunga r&d karne ke baad

sabse pahle to ye kah deta hu ki bahut se lafzo ka gender nikalne ka koi formula nahi hai. it simply has to be learnt by heart.no other way because they dont follow any rules

----------------------------------------------

ab aate hai is mudde par..
lafz =qalam/kalam

awaal to ye ke ye kahna ye lafz arabic derived hai half truth hai.
iska pahla root greek hai.

KALAMUS - ye definitive pahla root hai, main root is liye kaha ki proper noun se bana hai .
[ do bhai kalamus and karpos (son of zephyr: god of wind) me swimming competion hua..jisme karpos doob gaya and died. kalamus ko gahra dhakka pahucha , aur vo bhi jaan kar doob gaya and died. but kalamus got converted into a REED)

ab yaha se ye lafz for a reed derive kiya arabic ne , and also sanskrit ne 'kalama' derive kiya

ye bhi possible hai ki arabic ne second derive kiya from hebrew 'culmus' meaning 'quill', which hebrew derived from the original greek.

ye sab maine bataya not to give info , ek maqsad se .
i have formed a theory ke aisa kyu ho raha hai.isliye ye back ground zaruri tha.

--------------------------
urdu me do hi gender(jins) hai - male(masculine) and female (feminine)
magar ye baat operational nahi hai. practically urdu me bhi neutral gender hai , bus is naam se nahi bulate use for possibly chauvinistic reasons.

jaise 'bulbul' dono ho sakta hai...to effectively vo neutral gender hi hua...usko us naam se bulaoo na bulaoo, effect wahi hai.

---------------------------------------
ab aate hai mere theory par..
'qalam' lafz masculine hai as per urdu dictioneries. magar phir aisa kyu ki ye dono tarah istemaal ho raha hai?
'kalam' is feminine in hindi , ( check platts classical dictionery..it says hindi )

ab urdu and hindi ka syntax same hai , just script different hai. aisa lagta hai ki ye lafz itna intermingle ho gaya hai between hindi and urdu ki gender kho baitha hai in hindustani.it has become indefinite.

ye ek short breif hai, kind off introduction to an idea....dekhta hu ki alag alag kasauti par ye theory fit hoti hai ki nahi.

aap bhi dekhiye

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11th July 2014, 10:53 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by zidd View Post
wah , adeil sahab wah

claps -claps-claps

aapne sawaal ko bahut acchi tarah se frame kar diya.
waise to mostly jawaab bhi de diya.

ab mai mera yaha primary input dena hu..tafseel se baad me aunga r&d karne ke baad

sabse pahle to ye kah deta hu ki bahut se lafzo ka gender nikalne ka koi formula nahi hai. it simply has to be learnt by heart.no other way because they dont follow any rules

----------------------------------------------

ab aate hai is mudde par..
lafz =qalam/kalam

awaal to ye ke ye kahna ye lafz arabic derived hai half truth hai.
iska pahla root greek hai.

KALAMUS - ye definitive pahla root hai, main root is liye kaha ki proper noun se bana hai .
[ do bhai kalamus and karpos (son of zephyr: god of wind) me swimming competion hua..jisme karpos doob gaya and died. kalamus ko gahra dhakka pahucha , aur vo bhi jaan kar doob gaya and died. but kalamus got converted into a REED)

ab yaha se ye lafz for a reed derive kiya arabic ne , and also sanskrit ne 'kalama' derive kiya

ye bhi possible hai ki arabic ne second derive kiya from hebrew 'culmus' meaning 'quill', which hebrew derived from the original greek.

ye sab maine bataya not to give info , ek maqsad se .
i have formed a theory ke aisa kyu ho raha hai.isliye ye back ground zaruri tha.

--------------------------
urdu me do hi gender(jins) hai - male(masculine) and female (feminine)
magar ye baat operational nahi hai. practically urdu me bhi neutral gender hai , bus is naam se nahi bulate use for possibly chauvinistic reasons.

jaise 'bulbul' dono ho sakta hai...to effectively vo neutral gender hi hua...usko us naam se bulaoo na bulaoo, effect wahi hai.

---------------------------------------
ab aate hai mere theory par..
'qalam' lafz masculine hai as per urdu dictioneries. magar phir aisa kyu ki ye dono tarah istemaal ho raha hai?
'kalam' is feminine in hindi , ( check platts classical dictionery..it says hindi )

ab urdu and hindi ka syntax same hai , just script different hai. aisa lagta hai ki ye lafz itna intermingle ho gaya hai between hindi and urdu ki gender kho baitha hai in hindustani.it has become indefinite.

ye ek short breif hai, kind off introduction to an idea....dekhta hu ki alag alag kasauti par ye theory fit hoti hai ki nahi.

aap bhi dekhiye
waah, Zidd saab.. standing ovation to you sir

ji aapki baat sahi hai ki maine Greek root wali baat nahi kahi, magar mera maqsad tha sirf ees lafz ka urdu shaayri me.n istemaal kaise hona..
par aapne ees mudde ko aur bhii interesting bana diya..


thodi bahot clarificaton dena chahunga, Calamus (Latin) hai.. jo khud original Greek word Kalamos se derive hua hai. Aur jab mythological derivation of word Kalamos kii baat huee hai toh, usspe kuch aur baate.n karte hai.n.

pehle toh, Kalamos aur Karpos dono bhai nahi the . Kalamos was the son of Maiandros (God of Maeander river) aur Karpos was the son of Zephyrus & Chloris.

aur aapke isee afsaane ko complete karte hai.n

Greek & Latin mythology me.n maanaa jaataa hai ki water reeds kii jo rustling sound hai wo Kalamos kii rone kii awaaz hai.

(U = Urdu, A = Arabic, H = Hindi, S = Sanskrit)
ab aate hai.n phir se qalam (U. A.)/kalam (H)/kalama (S) lafz pe..

Sanskrit 'kalama' (masculine) ke 3 maanee hai.n; 'Rice' which is derived from 'to sound', a thief (koii root nahi mil rahaa) aur a reed for writing jiska root hame pataa hai is either Greek or Latin.

Arabic & Urdu 'qalam' (masculine) has 2 meanings; 'to cut from reed or plant' (used as verb [e.g. kalam karna]), writing pen (again derived from one of these Indo European languages).

Hindi 'kalam' (feminine) - to cut (v), to graft (v), pen (n), column (n)

ab Sanskrit aur Arabic me.n jab ki qalam ya kalama ko muzaqqar me.n liya gayaa hai, toh hindi me.n kaise use muannas ke tehat istemaal kiya gayaa? yeh ek uljhan hai..
lagtaa hai R&D aur zyada karnee padegii


magar isse ek baat clear hoti hai, jaise ki Zidd saab ne bataayaa, Arabic, Urdu aur Hindi me.n do hi jins hai.n, aur usee theory pe mai.n bhii jaataa hoo.n ki isske baa wajood neuter gender kii existence hai, practically.. toh yeh ek wajah ho sakti hai.. ab aur ek theory mai.n baandhtaa hoo.n ki shaayad, Arabic aur Sanskrit me.n yeh derive hue hai.n directly from Greek or Latin, toh shaayad Kalamos (male) se masculine (Muzaqqar) hi liya gayaa, magar Hindi me.n isse baad me.n jab istemaal kiya toh kisii tarah use muannas (feminine) kii tehat istemaal karne lage.

ab geet, kavita, ghazal, nazm me.n use dono hi jins me.n bayaan karne ke pichhe ek raa.ay mai.n yeh qaayam kartaa hoo.n ki shaayad jo bhii sukhanwar ya kalaakaar apnii tehriir me.n Arabic ya Urdu kii or zyaadaa jhukaav rakhta hai wo use muzaqqar me.n istemaal karta hai aur jo Hindi kii taraf zyada jhukaav rakhta hai wo muannas me.n istemaal karta hai. (This can be contradicted) , par kuch examples niche diye hai.n in support

ek example mash-hoor hindi sahityakaar aur kavi Premchandji kii qitab se..
haakim kii kalam pakaD lete hai.n - Premchand

aur Seema Sachdev kii ek kavita me.n uska prayog..
kalaakaar kii kalam

kuch Hindi gaano.n se:
Pyar Ke Kaagaz Pe Dil Ki Kalam Se
Pehali Baar Salaam Likhha
Maine Khat Mehaboob Ke Naam Likha
- Music Anand-Milind kii joDi ne diya tha, geetkaar ka naam pataa nahi hai

Dil ki kalam se
Chaahat ka ham
Pahala ehasaas likhenge
Ham apani mohabbat ka
Naya itihaas likhenge
- Geetkaar 'Sameer'

'Sagar' Akbarabadi kii kuch nazm aur ghazal se..
Zindagi saz hai, pyar sangeet hai,
Pyar ki har bhi, pyar ki jeet hai,
Pyar mein harte, pyar mein jeet te,
Pyar ke geet ki ham qalam ho gaye.


'Sagar' jo hamne aaj uthai hai phir qalam,
Surat tumhari zehn mein gulzar ho gayi.

Hai teri tegh se azmat mein giran meri qalam,
Nazm ko seena-sipar, she'ron ko risale kar dun.


magar yahaa.n dekhiye, unho.n ne hi qalam kaa istemaal muzaqqar me.n bhii kiya hai
Tumhari yad ne phir se mujhe sataya hai,
Nai ghazal ke liye phir qalam uthaya hai.


aur muzaqqar kii misaal pehle bhii dee hai is liye yahaa.n aur nahi dii hai..

Hindi me.n kaise woh feminine hua uspe aur zyada research kii zarurat hai..



ख़ुदा परेशां तेरी बला से तेरे सितम से तेरे अधम से
अगर हसीँ होते ज़ुल्म तेरे तू भी तो कुछ शर्मसार होता



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11th July 2014, 11:31 AM

zidd saahab aur Aadeil saahab.... behot bahot shukriyyaa aap dono shoraaon ka rahnumaai farmaane ke liye.....

aaap dono ki guftagoo padh kar bahot se doubts clear ho gaye hain aur jaisaa ke hamne conclude kiyaa hai ke iske liye koi hard n fast rule nahi hai ke ise kaise istemaal me laaya jaata hai.... it can be used as a neutral gender.

agar U/A ki baat karen ko aap ke hisab se it can be used as Masculine gender only and Hindi lughaat ki baat karen to kalam can be used as feminine.....

but agar ham misaalen dekhen to koi bhi misaal is baat ko abhi tak saabit nahi kar sakii hai ke ye ek fixed rule hai (lingual dependency). kyonki faraz aur minaai saahab jaise bade Urdu arbi shaayiron ne bhi ise muannas ke taur par bhi istemaal kiyaa hai...

to bas meraa muddaa ye thaa ke ise kis form me use kiyaa jaae either masculine ya feminine, ye wahi ka wahii rah gayaa... or can be used in both ways.....??????


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11th July 2014, 11:44 AM

Quote:
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zidd saahab aur Aadeil saahab.... behot bahot shukriyyaa aap dono shoraaon ka rahnumaai farmaane ke liye.....

aaap dono ki guftagoo padh kar bahot se doubts clear ho gaye hain aur jaisaa ke hamne conclude kiyaa hai ke iske liye koi hard n fast rule nahi hai ke ise kaise istemaal me laaya jaata hai.... it can be used as a neutral gender.

agar U/A ki baat karen ko aap ke hisab se it can be used as Masculine gender only and Hindi lughaat ki baat karen to kalam can be used as feminine.....

but agar ham misaalen dekhen to koi bhi misaal is baat ko abhi tak saabit nahi kar sakii hai ke ye ek fixed rule hai (lingual dependency). kyonki faraz aur minaai saahab jaise bade Urdu arbi shaayiron ne bhi ise muannas ke taur par bhi istemaal kiyaa hai...

to bas meraa muddaa ye thaa ke ise kis form me use kiyaa jaae either masculine ya feminine, ye wahi ka wahii rah gayaa... or can be used in both ways.....??????
Shoaib bhai,
aapne khud ne hi jawaab de diya ki it can be used in both forms.. (marked in GREEN in your comment)

aur jaise ki maine bataayaa ki my statement can be contradicted, magar maine yeh bhii nahi kahaa hai ki it is hard & fast ki jo shaayar urdu/arabic me.n istemaal karte hai.n we hamesha muzaqqar me.n hi istemaal karenge & vice versa Mera kehna hai ki zyaadaatar iis taraf ka jhukaav ho sakta hai.

vaise aap agar gaur kare.n toh maine 'Sagar' saab kii kuch tehriir bhii dii hai.n jis me ki ek sher me.n unho.n ne usse muzaqqar me.n use kiya hai, jab ki baaki jo unkii tehriir ke examples hai.n uss me muannas me.n istemaal kiya hai.
unke muzaqqar wale sher pe gaur kare.n toh shaayad unho.n ne kaafiye kii limitation ko dhyan me.n rakh ke yeh kiya ho.. but that again proves ki 'qalam' lafz ko aap dono.n jins me.n istemaal kar sakte hai.n

mai.n aur Ziddsaab ab iis research me.n uljhe hai.n ki yeh differentiation kaise paida huee



ख़ुदा परेशां तेरी बला से तेरे सितम से तेरे अधम से
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11th July 2014, 12:31 PM

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mai.n aur Ziddsaab ab iis research me.n uljhe hai.n ki yeh differentiation kaise paida huee
Ek interesting baat yeh hai ki, Hindi me.n kalam lafz Arabic ya Sanskrit 'qalam' se nahi liya gayaa hai (a bit of research of my own)

Hindi me.n iiska root hai farsi (Persian) lafz 'ghalam'..

Ek notable baat yeh hai ki, farsi uses common terms for male, female or neuter. Ya phir yu.n kahiye ki Persian me.n gender hi missing hai. Shaayad isee wajah se jahaa.n Persian se alfaaz liye gaye ho.n wahaa.n Hindi me.n unhe kisii ek gender me.n dhaal diya ho? jaise machhli (persian 'mahi'). Hindi me.n machhli ko orally feminine hi bola jaata hai, phir bhale hi wo male ho ya female. Just my theory

dhire dhire.. magar kuch aur information leke haazir hota hoo.n, tab tak.. Ziddsaab, aapka bhii intezaar hai



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अगर हसीँ होते ज़ुल्म तेरे तू भी तो कुछ शर्मसार होता



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11th July 2014, 12:53 PM

adeil sahab aapne bahut accha addition kiya hai.
mere khayaal se aur R&D , filhaal karna fizuul hai.
ye sabit ho gaya ki qalam , dono tarah se chalan me hai , murawwij hai.

ye kaha jaa saakta hai ki qalam urdu/classical hindustani me masculine hai
hindi me feminine hai( kuch hindi dictionaries M bhi kahti hai magar)

ab shayad ye kahna galat nahi ki qalam neutral hai , as per 'modern hindustani'

ab writer ne dekha ki dono tarah istemaal ho raha hai, bus liberty le li apne sahuliyat aur bandish ke hisaab se.

---------------------------

bade ustado ke qalamo se ,unki shaili se, unke bandish se , rules bante hai.
dictionery me lafz ,sirf uske chapne ke zamane tak ke chalan ko reflect karte hai. isliye alag alag dictioneries alag alag baat kah jatin hain.

kuch bhi deduct karne ke pahle sab material tolna hoga.dictionery dekhni hogi, misale dekhni hogi, grammar ke rules dekhne honge, aur us grammar rules ka poetry me situation dehkna hoga , aur poetic licence ki limit ko tolna hoga.even common sense has to be used.

it is always forgotten that urdu/classical hindustani is the only language , which is invented by the poets primarily, and the poets* were responsible to make this mixture of a language a language of literary merit.

ab poets hi is language ke initial prime movers/inventors hai , to unki misaale carries a very great force of rule /law,than any other language.

* poets of dilli,lahore ,luchnow ,agra area.
-----------------------------

in sab baato ko dekhte huye aisa lagta hai ki qalam ka usage in both the genders is possible, if the shayari is called 'Modern hindustani shayri'.( disclaiming just to put strict qualification)

ab sawaal ye uT'ta hai ki 'modern hindustani' shayri kya hai?
tou it may be a mixture of urdu and hindi words , leking jhukaaoo urdu ki taraf hai.

ab isi baat ko precisely kaha jaaaye tou aise kaha jayega ki -urdu borrows nouns/adjectives heaviliy from perso-arabic tradition. verbs/participles mostly come fron hindi/sanskrit tradition. syntax is totally hindi.
tou if the nouns/adjectives are also borrowed to a greater extent from hindi , it may be kind of called 'modern Hindustani'
example of this is 'formal bollywood language'

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11th July 2014, 01:03 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by zidd View Post
adeil sahab aapne bahut accha addition kiya hai.
mere khayaal se aur R&D , filhaal karna fizuul hai.
ye sabit ho gaya ki qalam , dono tarah se chalan me hai , murawwij hai.

ye kaha jaa saakta hai ki qalam urdu/classical hindustani me masculine hai
hindi me feminine hai( kuch hindi dictionaries M bhi kahti hai magar)

ab shayad ye kahna galat nahi ki qalam neutral hai , as per 'modern hindustani'

ab writer ne dekha ki dono tarah istemaal ho raha hai, bus liberty le li apne sahuliyat aur bandish ke hisaab se.

---------------------------

bade ustado ke qalamo se ,unki shaili se, unke bandish se , rules bante hai.
dictionery me lafz ,sirf uske chapne ke zamane tak ke chalan ko reflect karte hai. isliye alag alag dictioneries alag alag baat kah jatin hain.

kuch bhi deduct karne ke pahle sab material tolna hoga.dictionery dekhni hogi, misale dekhni hogi, grammar ke rules dekhne honge, aur us grammar rules ka poetry me situation dehkna hoga , aur poetic licence ki limit ko tolna hoga.even common sense has to be used.

it is always forgotten that urdu/classical hindustani is the only language , which is invented by the poets primarily, and the poets* were responsible to make this mixture of a language a language of literary merit.

ab poets hi is language ke initial prime movers/inventors hai , to unki misaale carries a very great force of rule /law,than any other language.

* poets of dilli,lahore ,luchnow ,agra area.
-----------------------------

in sab baato ko dekhte huye aisa lagta hai ki qalam ka usage in both the genders is possible, if the shayari is called 'Modern hindustani shayri'.( disclaiming just to put strict qualification)

ab sawaal ye uT'ta hai ki 'modern hindustani' shayri kya hai?
tou it may be a mixture of urdu and hindi words , leking jhukaaoo urdu ki taraf hai.

ab isi baat ko precisely kaha jaaaye tou aise kaha jayega ki -urdu borrows nouns/adjectives heaviliy from perso-arabic tradition. verbs/participles mostly come fron hindi/sanskrit tradition. syntax is totally hindi.
tou if the nouns/adjectives are also borrowed to a greater extent from hindi , it may be kind of called 'modern Hindustani'
example of this is 'formal bollywood language'

regards
ji Ziddsaab durust farmaayaa... vaise thoDi aur R&D kii toh kuch achchhi aur behad interesting baate.n jaane ko milii

isee liye maine meri pichhli post thoDi edit kar di hai . agar koii interested ho ki Hindi me.n kaise use feminine me.n liyaa gayaa (aur jaise aapne bataayaa ki kaii Hindi dictionaries bhii use (M) bataatii hai.n toh shaayad yeh ek logic kaam aa jaaye.

Shoaibhai ka bahot bahot shukriya jo ek healthy discussion shuruu kiya aur aap ka bhii teh-e-dil se shukra guzaar hoo.n jise iis muqaam tak laane me.n himaayat di



ख़ुदा परेशां तेरी बला से तेरे सितम से तेरे अधम से
अगर हसीँ होते ज़ुल्म तेरे तू भी तो कुछ शर्मसार होता



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11th July 2014, 01:07 PM

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ji Ziddsaab durust farmaayaa... vaise thoDi aur R&D kii toh kuch achchhi aur behad interesting baate.n jaane ko milii

isee liye maine meri pichhli post thoDi edit kar di hai . agar koii interested ho ki Hindi me.n kaise use feminine me.n liyaa gayaa (aur jaise aapne bataayaa ki kaii Hindi dictionaries bhii use (M) bataatii hai.n toh shaayad yeh ek logic kaam aa jaaye.

Shoaibhai ka bahot bahot shukriya jo ek healthy discussion shuruu kiya aur aap ka bhii teh-e-dil se shukra guzaar hoo.n jise iis muqaam tak laane me.n himaayat di
adeil sahab maine aapka post dekha nahi tha , varna r&d wali bat nahi karta.

aap agee badiye...the topic has become very interesting now.

jaisa pahle kaha ki is thread ka maqsad baal ki khaal nikalna hai
so carry on , i am here.
   
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11th July 2014, 03:37 PM

I also want to add my reference here, hope it will help...

The author of Aab-e-Hayaat, Maulana Mohammad Hussain Azad was teaching in Government College Lahore. Some one asked him as to why the word "qalam" was masculine in Urdu. (In Punjabi, it is feminine.) Azad lifted a pen from his desk, plunged it into the inkpot and said: "That is why."


Source: From the archives of ALUP (alt.language.urdu.poetry)


Shaad...
   
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11th July 2014, 03:53 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by sameer'shaad' View Post
I also want to add my reference here, hope it will help...

The author of Aab-e-Hayaat, Maulana Mohammad Hussain Azad was teaching in Government College Lahore. Some one asked him as to why the word "qalam" was masculine in Urdu. (In Punjabi, it is feminine.) Azad lifted a pen from his desk, plunged it into the inkpot and said: "That is why."


Source: From the archives of ALUP (alt.language.urdu.poetry)
i wonder what he would have done in todays times if he was around ,if some one had given him a ballpen and asked the same question.
it only shows that languages are not constant, but dynamic
   
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11th July 2014, 04:10 PM

Quote:
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i wonder what he would have done in todays times if he was around ,if some one had given him a ballpen and asked the same question.
it only shows that languages are not constant, but dynamic
absolutely.....................................


Shaad...
   
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11th July 2014, 05:30 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by sameer'shaad' View Post
I also want to add my reference here, hope it will help...

The author of Aab-e-Hayaat, Maulana Mohammad Hussain Azad was teaching in Government College Lahore. Some one asked him as to why the word "qalam" was masculine in Urdu. (In Punjabi, it is feminine.) Azad lifted a pen from his desk, plunged it into the inkpot and said: "That is why."


Source: From the archives of ALUP (alt.language.urdu.poetry)
ha hha haaaaaa......
janaab, bilkul sahi baat hai.........



ख़ुदा परेशां तेरी बला से तेरे सितम से तेरे अधम से
अगर हसीँ होते ज़ुल्म तेरे तू भी तो कुछ शर्मसार होता



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11th July 2014, 05:34 PM

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i wonder what he would have done in todays times if he was around ,if some one had given him a ballpen and asked the same question.
it only shows that languages are not constant, but dynamic
ha hha haaaaa.... arrey baapre......

kahaa.n se kahaa.n pahuncha di discussion....

but absolutely true..... ball pen... OMG ROFL....

vaise.. aapke isee statement ko support karte hue ek article... fursat se padhyega maine bhii sirf brief view diya hai...
http://prr.hec.gov.pk/chapters/2072-5.pdf

Regards



ख़ुदा परेशां तेरी बला से तेरे सितम से तेरे अधम से
अगर हसीँ होते ज़ुल्म तेरे तू भी तो कुछ शर्मसार होता



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11th July 2014, 06:16 PM

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ha hha haaaaa.... arrey baapre......

kahaa.n se kahaa.n pahuncha di discussion....

but absolutely true..... ball pen... OMG ROFL....

vaise.. aapke isee statement ko support karte hue ek article... fursat se padhyega maine bhii sirf brief view diya hai...
http://prr.hec.gov.pk/chapters/2072-5.pdf

Regards
amaa yaar kuch asli kaam ka item nikalo..ye sab baccho ki churan goli nahi...
u can do better than this
   
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14th July 2014, 09:28 AM

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amaa yaar kuch asli kaam ka item nikalo..ye sab baccho ki churan goli nahi...
u can do better than this
Arrey Ziddsaab,

kabhii kabhii bahkaanii cheezo.n me.n kaam kii information miltii hai
shaayad aapne starting dekh ke article chhoD dii..

page 73 (Gender) ke baare me.n ek khaas information miltii hai jo hamaare sawaal ka jawaab hai

aniate nouns & inanimate nouns ke baare me.n aap padhenge toh yeh clear ho jaataa hai ki inanimate nouns me.n gender classification kaise hogii.. [5.1.1]

inanimate nouns, agar neuter gender ho toh uskii gender classification uskii ancestral language ke gender se lii jaati hai, magar ancestral language me.n uskii agar classification nahi hai toh object ke qadd ke hisaab se gender classify hogii; jaise urdu me.n qalam (A) apnii ancestral language me.n masculine hone kii wajah se masculine hogii, magar hindi me.n kalam (P) ancestral language me.n koii gender nahi.n hotii hai toh second rule object ke qadd ke hisaab se feminine hogii.



ख़ुदा परेशां तेरी बला से तेरे सितम से तेरे अधम से
अगर हसीँ होते ज़ुल्म तेरे तू भी तो कुछ शर्मसार होता



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14th July 2014, 09:30 AM

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Zidd part 2 next moderator tum hi banoge
arrey nahi.n Nazneen, hame.n toh ab bahot kuch sikhna paDhna baaki hai
Zidd saab, Ufaq saab jaise aalim se kuch ilm ho bas itnee koshish hai....



ख़ुदा परेशां तेरी बला से तेरे सितम से तेरे अधम से
अगर हसीँ होते ज़ुल्म तेरे तू भी तो कुछ शर्मसार होता



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14th July 2014, 01:14 PM

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Aadil chupe rustom aalimon se achchi khasi discussion kar lete ho aur bhi seekhna hai tumhe hamare liye bhi kuch rehne do

arrey toh aa jaao naa maidaan me.n...
Zainyji bhii last bencher hoo.n kehte kehte zabardast baazi maar leti hai.n

ab aap bhii aa jaao.... intezaar kis baat ka hai



ख़ुदा परेशां तेरी बला से तेरे सितम से तेरे अधम से
अगर हसीँ होते ज़ुल्म तेरे तू भी तो कुछ शर्मसार होता



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14th July 2014, 07:03 PM

Aadaab Zidd bhaee....

Agar munaasib samjhayn aur fursat milay tou aapsay Ghayr-muraddaf ghazal par nazr ki guzaarish haye. Is say ham sab kay ilm mayn ghazal ki iqsaam ko samjhnay mayn izaafa hoga!! Waqt ki koee tangee nahee.. aap apni fursat say is par roashnee daalayn.

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14th July 2014, 07:07 PM

Today, 05:02 PM
mai 'milestones in a poets journey' -ek article likhna chahta tha, magar mere saare thoughts jumbled up hain, isliye nahi likha.

ye waise sa topic hai , jo adeil sahab aur naaz discuss kar rahe hain abhi....so mere kuch khayaal is topic par qalamband karta hu...kya pata mera thought process saaf ho jaaye isi bahaane se.

jab koi shayri try karta hai , aur koi khas background nahi hai , to sabse pahle talafuz ki galtiya karta hai adab ke hisaab se , aam baat cheet ke hisaab se nahi...uske baad qafiye ki , meter to pata hi nahi .

agar vo kuch theek thaak kah gaya , to log use Tonkte hai..ki ispar gaur karo , uspar gaur karo....agar nahi toke to samjh jana chaiye ki sabne soch liya hai ye aadmi qabil nahi..lol..i know thats unfair , but also the bitter truth...unhiko toka jata hai jinse umeed hoti hai.

agar jazbaa hua , ya bahut hi ziyada shayri ki lat lag jaaye us waqt sukhanwar ko , to vo dhundna shuru karta hai information. net par dhundta hai...aadhi baat samjh aati hai , aadhi nahi, logo se poochna shuru karta hai , shayro se milna shuru karta hai , urdu ki jaankari lena shuru karta hai. ustad banata hai , badalta hai...ye silsila chalta rahta hai .

jaise hi basics par grasp aa jaata hai , use lagne lagta hai ki use ab aane laga hai..shayri me improvements aata hai. yu kahna bhi galat nahi ke basics aane ke baad shayri badal si jaati hai uski, kyuki use bandisho ka pata chal chuka hai...is stage par shayar dil ka shayar nahi raha ....ab dimaag bhi istemaal hone laga hai.

ab thodi uski aur taareef hone lagti hai, jinko zara kam aata hai usse sawaaal karne lagte hai...is stage par shayar ,kuch hadd tak formal ban chuka hai. ab vo knowledge dhund raha hai vigorously...shayri ke har pahlu par gaur kar raha hai....shayri bigaadne laagti hai beharbandi aur tecnic ki wajah se, but knowledge exponentially badti jati hai.

ab shayar pareshaan ho jata hai ki ye kya ho gaya? knowledge ke dayre me aaya to ulta asar ho gaya? vo shayar - knowledge ko samjhaa hi adha adhora hai, to un bandisho me shayri kaise hogi ? ab sab poora samajhne ki hoD me lag jata hai. logo ko dhundta hai , ki koi raah dikhaye. sabhi uljhane door kare uski . ustaado se baat karta hai...kuch naam ke ustaad milte hai , kuch kaam ke milte hai....unse dosti ho jati hai...seekhne ka kaam zara aasaan ho jata hai.

kuch mahine ye silsila chalta hai...theek thak chalta hai...ilm bhi badtaa hai ...shayri me pakad bhi...ilm ki khoj bani rahti hai..barikiya malum padne lagti hai ,ya use kam se kam aisa lagne lagta hai ! .ab vo dusro ko kuch hadd tak madad kar sakta hai...magar sab objective knowledge hai, but advanced qism ki, jaise bahut se aib kya hai, qafiya kab galat hota hai , meter jo vo practically samjh raha hai usme variations kya hai hain ye sab..zara semi advanced qism ki baaate. dusro ko batata hai...is stage par uska kuch naam ho jata hai . log raey maange lagte hai.use aisa lagne lagta hai ki mostly use sab aa gaya.

phir vo ek- 2 logo se kabhi takra jata hai..unki baat sunkar self doubt hone lagta hai . (mere case me ye meter ke mutaliq hua tha)...use samjh aata hai ki jo knowledge hai , vo ilm to sirf practical hai..vo poochne lagta hai ye hua kaise , aaya kaise , derive kaise hua?...kya tareeka hai , kya tecnic hai?

ab phir ek naya padaaoo shuru hota hai. ab vo shayri nahi , ilm ke peeche bhaag raha hai.use pata chalta hai ki kuch samjhne ke liye pahle kuch aur samjhna hoga , aur uske pahle kuch aur in continium and in circles...is shay ka koi seera nahi. koi start nahi , koi end nahi. ek shunya sa, jisme sara ilm ho...........vo kahta hai chodo bahut seeehk liya ...jo ban paye vo shayri karo...ye sab baat apne liye nahi....

par shayri kaha hoti hai?...akhir ilm ki bhookh nahi miTti..phir se koshish shuru hoti hai..is baar systematically. pahle urdu ki basic knowledge li jati hai ki vo samjh sake technicalities, aur dheere dheere use kuch satisfaction milta hai. magar shayri ka kya hua?...vo to kuch khas improve hui nahi, itne dost , uztaaz, language teachers ,ustaad sab hone ke bawajood?

actually ab vo kuch aur hi chah raha hai...us ilm ke circle me chakkar khate khate uski mulakat hoti hai history se, use samjh aata hai ki ghazal ke sher yu hi nahi bante. uske motifs aur mazmoon ek deep rooted philosophy hai, jisko sirf mehsoos kiya jaa sakta hai, qalam band karna near impossible hai.
jis din use ye ehsaans ho jata hai ki ghazal ke sher likhne ka matlab kya hai, vo samjh jata hai ki abhi raasta bahut agee jayega, magar iski koi manzil nahi. ye raasta kahi nahi jata , na kahi khatm hota hai.

ab phir naya padaoo-ki sher kya hai...is kaifiyat ke sher ke liye kaunsa meter hai...jo vo pahle kar jata tha , jaha chahe waha lafz fit kar diya , ab use vo karna gawara nahi...misre ke hisaab se lafz ko dhaalna hai jo uski kaifiyat ka asar rakhe, kaha par saktaa daalna hai..kaha meter me jaankar band lafzo ka istemaal karna hai , kaha open takhti chodni hai, lafzo ka aakaar kaisa hai..meter me hokar bhi kya sahi takhta sahi jagah hai?
agar flow dikhana hai to takhte ka aakaar open chaiye in positional places. agar gussa dikha rahe hai , to kis spot par band takhte se end hota lafz daalna hai...dono misro me lafaazi rabt kaisi hai?... ye koi hyrat wali baat nahi ke pahle aur ab bhi shayar hi paheliya banate hain.....

ab jab ye baat samjh aati hai ,bahut der baad sahi, to ye pata chalta hai ,ke afterall usko kuch nahi aata.
the journey restarts .


(i will write an article on this topic in due course)
is tarah ki guftugoo dekhi to ye likh baitha
   
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14th July 2014, 07:13 PM

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Originally Posted by Ahmad Hyderabadi View Post
Aadaab Zidd bhaee....

Agar munaasib samjhayn aur fursat milay tou aapsay Ghayr-muraddaf ghazal par nazr ki guzaarish haye. Is say ham sab kay ilm mayn ghazal ki iqsaam ko samjhnay mayn izaafa hoga!! Waqt ki koee tangee nahee.. aap apni fursat say is par roashnee daalayn.

Duagoh
Ahmad
aapka hukm sar ankho par..aapko to pata hi hai ke mai kuch yu hi nahi kah dunga..jaise definition de diya etc.

i will come out with a complete history and the nuances and acecdotes regarding that
   
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Thumbs up 14th July 2014, 07:17 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by zidd View Post
Today, 05:02 PM
mai 'milestones in a poets journey' -ek article likhna chahta tha, magar mere saare thoughts jumbled up hain, isliye nahi likha.

ye waise sa topic hai , jo adeil sahab aur naaz discuss kar rahe hain abhi....so mere kuch khayaal is topic par qalamband karta hu...kya pata mera thought process saaf ho jaaye isi bahaane se.

jab koi shayri try karta hai , aur koi khas background nahi hai , to sabse pahle talafuz ki galtiya karta hai adab ke hisaab se , aam baat cheet ke hisaab se nahi...uske baad qafiye ki , meter to pata hi nahi .

agar vo kuch theek thaak kah gaya , to log use Tonkte hai..ki ispar gaur karo , uspar gaur karo....agar nahi toke to samjh jana chaiye ki sabne soch liya hai ye aadmi qabil nahi..lol..i know thats unfair , but also the bitter truth...unhiko toka jata hai jinse umeed hoti hai.

agar jazbaa hua , ya bahut hi ziyada shayri ki lat lag jaaye us waqt sukhanwar ko , to vo dhundna shuru karta hai information. net par dhundta hai...aadhi baat samjh aati hai , aadhi nahi, logo se poochna shuru karta hai , shayro se milna shuru karta hai , urdu ki jaankari lena shuru karta hai. ustad banata hai , badalta hai...ye silsila chalta rahta hai .

jaise hi basics par grasp aa jaata hai , use lagne lagta hai ki use ab aane laga hai..shayri me improvements aata hai. yu kahna bhi galat nahi ke basics aane ke baad shayri badal si jaati hai uski, kyuki use bandisho ka pata chal chuka hai...is stage par shayar dil ka shayar nahi raha ....ab dimaag bhi istemaal hone laga hai.

ab thodi uski aur taareef hone lagti hai, jinko zara kam aata hai usse sawaaal karne lagte hai...is stage par shayar ,kuch hadd tak formal ban chuka hai. ab vo knowledge dhund raha hai vigorously...shayri ke har pahlu par gaur kar raha hai....shayri bigaadne laagti hai beharbandi aur tecnic ki wajah se, but knowledge exponentially badti jati hai.

ab shayar pareshaan ho jata hai ki ye kya ho gaya? knowledge ke dayre me aaya to ulta asar ho gaya? vo shayar - knowledge ko samjhaa hi adha adhora hai, to un bandisho me shayri kaise hogi ? ab sab poora samajhne ki hoD me lag jata hai. logo ko dhundta hai , ki koi raah dikhaye. sabhi uljhane door kare uski . ustaado se baat karta hai...kuch naam ke ustaad milte hai , kuch kaam ke milte hai....unse dosti ho jati hai...seekhne ka kaam zara aasaan ho jata hai.

kuch mahine ye silsila chalta hai...theek thak chalta hai...ilm bhi badtaa hai ...shayri me pakad bhi...ilm ki khoj bani rahti hai..barikiya malum padne lagti hai ,ya use kam se kam aisa lagne lagta hai ! .ab vo dusro ko kuch hadd tak madad kar sakta hai...magar sab objective knowledge hai, but advanced qism ki, jaise bahut se aib kya hai, qafiya kab galat hota hai , meter jo vo practically samjh raha hai usme variations kya hai hain ye sab..zara semi advanced qism ki baaate. dusro ko batata hai...is stage par uska kuch naam ho jata hai . log raey maange lagte hai.use aisa lagne lagta hai ki mostly use sab aa gaya.

phir vo ek- 2 logo se kabhi takra jata hai..unki baat sunkar self doubt hone lagta hai . (mere case me ye meter ke mutaliq hua tha)...use samjh aata hai ki jo knowledge hai , vo ilm to sirf practical hai..vo poochne lagta hai ye hua kaise , aaya kaise , derive kaise hua?...kya tareeka hai , kya tecnic hai?

ab phir ek naya padaaoo shuru hota hai. ab vo shayri nahi , ilm ke peeche bhaag raha hai.use pata chalta hai ki kuch samjhne ke liye pahle kuch aur samjhna hoga , aur uske pahle kuch aur in continium and in circles...is shay ka koi seera nahi. koi start nahi , koi end nahi. ek shunya sa, jisme sara ilm ho...........vo kahta hai chodo bahut seeehk liya ...jo ban paye vo shayri karo...ye sab baat apne liye nahi....

par shayri kaha hoti hai?...akhir ilm ki bhookh nahi miTti..phir se koshish shuru hoti hai..is baar systematically. pahle urdu ki basic knowledge li jati hai ki vo samjh sake technicalities, aur dheere dheere use kuch satisfaction milta hai. magar shayri ka kya hua?...vo to kuch khas improve hui nahi, itne dost , uztaaz, language teachers ,ustaad sab hone ke bawajood?

actually ab vo kuch aur hi chah raha hai...us ilm ke circle me chakkar khate khate uski mulakat hoti hai history se, use samjh aata hai ki ghazal ke sher yu hi nahi bante. uske motifs aur mazmoon ek deep rooted philosophy hai, jisko sirf mehsoos kiya jaa sakta hai, qalam band karna near impossible hai.
jis din use ye ehsaans ho jata hai ki ghazal ke sher likhne ka matlab kya hai, vo samjh jata hai ki abhi raasta bahut agee jayega, magar iski koi manzil nahi. ye raasta kahi nahi jata , na kahi khatm hota hai.

ab phir naya padaoo-ki sher kya hai...is kaifiyat ke sher ke liye kaunsa meter hai...jo vo pahle kar jata tha , jaha chahe waha lafz fit kar diya , ab use vo karna gawara nahi...misre ke hisaab se lafz ko dhaalna hai jo uski kaifiyat ka asar rakhe, kaha par saktaa daalna hai..kaha meter me jaankar band lafzo ka istemaal karna hai , kaha open takhti chodni hai, lafzo ka aakaar kaisa hai..meter me hokar bhi kya sahi takhta sahi jagah hai?
agar flow dikhana hai to takhte ka aakaar open chaiye in positional places. agar gussa dikha rahe hai , to kis spot par band takhte se end hota lafz daalna hai...dono misro me lafaazi rabt kaisi hai?... ye koi hyrat wali baat nahi ke pahle aur ab bhi shayar hi paheliya banate hain.....

ab jab ye baat samjh aati hai ,bahut der baad sahi, to ye pata chalta hai ,ke afterall usko kuch nahi aata.
the journey restarts .


(i will write an article on this topic in due course)
is tarah ki guftugoo dekhi to ye likh baitha
Aadaab Zidd bhaee, maynay is jawaab ko aapkay kuch dayr pahlay he parh liya and I observed the following :
1. Many points you have highlighted .... I believe .. whether we( I mean .. us students here) acknowledge it or not do relate directly to them... i.e. the milestones... the experiences..
2. Some of the points you have shed light on above are a bit confusing... I don't mean to say unclear but they look maze like journey lines...

awaiting your article.... keenly... which I believe will surely open up the way through the maze....
but for sure hats off to your deeeeeeeeep insight bhaee!!!


Duagoh

Ahmad

Last edited by Ahmad Hyderabadi; 14th July 2014 at 07:25 PM..
   
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14th July 2014, 07:24 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by zidd View Post
aapka hukm sar ankho par..aapko to pata hi hai ke mai kuch yu hi nahi kah dunga..jaise definition de diya etc.

i will come out with a complete history and the nuances and acecdotes regarding that
Bhaee..... hukum naheee iltijaa haye... guzaarish ka tarjuma hukum say honay laga tou ham jaysaon ki khayr naheee...

Aapkay jawaabi post aur usko yahaan post karnay ki wajah bilkul saaf seedha samajh aayeen aur aapkay jawaab ki misaal mayree yay oopar kee gayee guzaarish haye..... my request is a live example of the milestones/journeys/experiences you are talking about in your article above.....
and yes Sir, I know fully thats why clearly stated that please only answer at your most convenient time.... ( fully aware of the burdens you enlist on your consignment of knowledge you send when someone seeks something)

THANKS AGAIN BHAEE!!


Duagoh

Ahmad

Last edited by Ahmad Hyderabadi; 14th July 2014 at 07:29 PM..
   
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14th July 2014, 08:34 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by zidd View Post
Today, 05:02 PM
mai 'milestones in a poets journey' -ek article likhna chahta tha, magar mere saare thoughts jumbled up hain, isliye nahi likha.

ye waise sa topic hai , jo adeil sahab aur naaz discuss kar rahe hain abhi....so mere kuch khayaal is topic par qalamband karta hu...kya pata mera thought process saaf ho jaaye isi bahaane se.

jab koi shayri try karta hai , aur koi khas background nahi hai , to sabse pahle talafuz ki galtiya karta hai adab ke hisaab se , aam baat cheet ke hisaab se nahi...uske baad qafiye ki , meter to pata hi nahi .

agar vo kuch theek thaak kah gaya , to log use Tonkte hai..ki ispar gaur karo , uspar gaur karo....agar nahi toke to samjh jana chaiye ki sabne soch liya hai ye aadmi qabil nahi..lol..i know thats unfair , but also the bitter truth...unhiko toka jata hai jinse umeed hoti hai.

agar jazbaa hua , ya bahut hi ziyada shayri ki lat lag jaaye us waqt sukhanwar ko , to vo dhundna shuru karta hai information. net par dhundta hai...aadhi baat samjh aati hai , aadhi nahi, logo se poochna shuru karta hai , shayro se milna shuru karta hai , urdu ki jaankari lena shuru karta hai. ustad banata hai , badalta hai...ye silsila chalta rahta hai .

jaise hi basics par grasp aa jaata hai , use lagne lagta hai ki use ab aane laga hai..shayri me improvements aata hai. yu kahna bhi galat nahi ke basics aane ke baad shayri badal si jaati hai uski, kyuki use bandisho ka pata chal chuka hai...is stage par shayar dil ka shayar nahi raha ....ab dimaag bhi istemaal hone laga hai.

ab thodi uski aur taareef hone lagti hai, jinko zara kam aata hai usse sawaaal karne lagte hai...is stage par shayar ,kuch hadd tak formal ban chuka hai. ab vo knowledge dhund raha hai vigorously...shayri ke har pahlu par gaur kar raha hai....shayri bigaadne laagti hai beharbandi aur tecnic ki wajah se, but knowledge exponentially badti jati hai.

ab shayar pareshaan ho jata hai ki ye kya ho gaya? knowledge ke dayre me aaya to ulta asar ho gaya? vo shayar - knowledge ko samjhaa hi adha adhora hai, to un bandisho me shayri kaise hogi ? ab sab poora samajhne ki hoD me lag jata hai. logo ko dhundta hai , ki koi raah dikhaye. sabhi uljhane door kare uski . ustaado se baat karta hai...kuch naam ke ustaad milte hai , kuch kaam ke milte hai....unse dosti ho jati hai...seekhne ka kaam zara aasaan ho jata hai.

kuch mahine ye silsila chalta hai...theek thak chalta hai...ilm bhi badtaa hai ...shayri me pakad bhi...ilm ki khoj bani rahti hai..barikiya malum padne lagti hai ,ya use kam se kam aisa lagne lagta hai ! .ab vo dusro ko kuch hadd tak madad kar sakta hai...magar sab objective knowledge hai, but advanced qism ki, jaise bahut se aib kya hai, qafiya kab galat hota hai , meter jo vo practically samjh raha hai usme variations kya hai hain ye sab..zara semi advanced qism ki baaate. dusro ko batata hai...is stage par uska kuch naam ho jata hai . log raey maange lagte hai.use aisa lagne lagta hai ki mostly use sab aa gaya.

phir vo ek- 2 logo se kabhi takra jata hai..unki baat sunkar self doubt hone lagta hai . (mere case me ye meter ke mutaliq hua tha)...use samjh aata hai ki jo knowledge hai , vo ilm to sirf practical hai..vo poochne lagta hai ye hua kaise , aaya kaise , derive kaise hua?...kya tareeka hai , kya tecnic hai?

ab phir ek naya padaaoo shuru hota hai. ab vo shayri nahi , ilm ke peeche bhaag raha hai.use pata chalta hai ki kuch samjhne ke liye pahle kuch aur samjhna hoga , aur uske pahle kuch aur in continium and in circles...is shay ka koi seera nahi. koi start nahi , koi end nahi. ek shunya sa, jisme sara ilm ho...........vo kahta hai chodo bahut seeehk liya ...jo ban paye vo shayri karo...ye sab baat apne liye nahi....

par shayri kaha hoti hai?...akhir ilm ki bhookh nahi miTti..phir se koshish shuru hoti hai..is baar systematically. pahle urdu ki basic knowledge li jati hai ki vo samjh sake technicalities, aur dheere dheere use kuch satisfaction milta hai. magar shayri ka kya hua?...vo to kuch khas improve hui nahi, itne dost , uztaaz, language teachers ,ustaad sab hone ke bawajood?

actually ab vo kuch aur hi chah raha hai...us ilm ke circle me chakkar khate khate uski mulakat hoti hai history se, use samjh aata hai ki ghazal ke sher yu hi nahi bante. uske motifs aur mazmoon ek deep rooted philosophy hai, jisko sirf mehsoos kiya jaa sakta hai, qalam band karna near impossible hai.
jis din use ye ehsaans ho jata hai ki ghazal ke sher likhne ka matlab kya hai, vo samjh jata hai ki abhi raasta bahut agee jayega, magar iski koi manzil nahi. ye raasta kahi nahi jata , na kahi khatm hota hai.

ab phir naya padaoo-ki sher kya hai...is kaifiyat ke sher ke liye kaunsa meter hai...jo vo pahle kar jata tha , jaha chahe waha lafz fit kar diya , ab use vo karna gawara nahi...misre ke hisaab se lafz ko dhaalna hai jo uski kaifiyat ka asar rakhe, kaha par saktaa daalna hai..kaha meter me jaankar band lafzo ka istemaal karna hai , kaha open takhti chodni hai, lafzo ka aakaar kaisa hai..meter me hokar bhi kya sahi takhta sahi jagah hai?
agar flow dikhana hai to takhte ka aakaar open chaiye in positional places. agar gussa dikha rahe hai , to kis spot par band takhte se end hota lafz daalna hai...dono misro me lafaazi rabt kaisi hai?... ye koi hyrat wali baat nahi ke pahle aur ab bhi shayar hi paheliya banate hain.....

ab jab ye baat samjh aati hai ,bahut der baad sahi, to ye pata chalta hai ,ke afterall usko kuch nahi aata.
the journey restarts .


(i will write an article on this topic in due course)
is tarah ki guftugoo dekhi to ye likh baitha


zidd saahab aadaab.... aapka article hai yaa ilm ka khazaanaa bas iske lafz lafz me doobta chalaa gayaa aur har lafz pe ye mahsoos huaa ke ye mere liye jaise likhaa gayaa ho , ya har un insaan ke liye jo is daayre me aataa ho... mujhe bhi yahi lagtaa hia ke ilm aisi cheez hai jiske liye insaan jitnii mehnat kare kam hotaa hai...
aap jaise shoraa aur aamil is mahfil me hain to ham ise apni taqdeer samajhte hain... ek baar fir se aapkaa bahot shukriyaa....

Shaad,....


Shaad...
   
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Thumbs up awesome !! - 14th July 2014, 09:46 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by zidd View Post
Today, 05:02 PM
mai 'milestones in a poets journey' -ek article likhna chahta tha, magar mere saare thoughts jumbled up hain, isliye nahi likha.

ye waise sa topic hai , jo adeil sahab aur naaz discuss kar rahe hain abhi....so mere kuch khayaal is topic par qalamband karta hu...kya pata mera thought process saaf ho jaaye isi bahaane se.

jab koi shayri try karta hai , aur koi khas background nahi hai , to sabse pahle talafuz ki galtiya karta hai adab ke hisaab se , aam baat cheet ke hisaab se nahi...uske baad qafiye ki , meter to pata hi nahi .

agar vo kuch theek thaak kah gaya , to log use Tonkte hai..ki ispar gaur karo , uspar gaur karo....agar nahi toke to samjh jana chaiye ki sabne soch liya hai ye aadmi qabil nahi..lol..i know thats unfair , but also the bitter truth...unhiko toka jata hai jinse umeed hoti hai.

agar jazbaa hua , ya bahut hi ziyada shayri ki lat lag jaaye us waqt sukhanwar ko , to vo dhundna shuru karta hai information. net par dhundta hai...aadhi baat samjh aati hai , aadhi nahi, logo se poochna shuru karta hai , shayro se milna shuru karta hai , urdu ki jaankari lena shuru karta hai. ustad banata hai , badalta hai...ye silsila chalta rahta hai .

jaise hi basics par grasp aa jaata hai , use lagne lagta hai ki use ab aane laga hai..shayri me improvements aata hai. yu kahna bhi galat nahi ke basics aane ke baad shayri badal si jaati hai uski, kyuki use bandisho ka pata chal chuka hai...is stage par shayar dil ka shayar nahi raha ....ab dimaag bhi istemaal hone laga hai.

ab thodi uski aur taareef hone lagti hai, jinko zara kam aata hai usse sawaaal karne lagte hai...is stage par shayar ,kuch hadd tak formal ban chuka hai. ab vo knowledge dhund raha hai vigorously...shayri ke har pahlu par gaur kar raha hai....shayri bigaadne laagti hai beharbandi aur tecnic ki wajah se, but knowledge exponentially badti jati hai.

ab shayar pareshaan ho jata hai ki ye kya ho gaya? knowledge ke dayre me aaya to ulta asar ho gaya? vo shayar - knowledge ko samjhaa hi adha adhora hai, to un bandisho me shayri kaise hogi ? ab sab poora samajhne ki hoD me lag jata hai. logo ko dhundta hai , ki koi raah dikhaye. sabhi uljhane door kare uski . ustaado se baat karta hai...kuch naam ke ustaad milte hai , kuch kaam ke milte hai....unse dosti ho jati hai...seekhne ka kaam zara aasaan ho jata hai.

kuch mahine ye silsila chalta hai...theek thak chalta hai...ilm bhi badtaa hai ...shayri me pakad bhi...ilm ki khoj bani rahti hai..barikiya malum padne lagti hai ,ya use kam se kam aisa lagne lagta hai ! .ab vo dusro ko kuch hadd tak madad kar sakta hai...magar sab objective knowledge hai, but advanced qism ki, jaise bahut se aib kya hai, qafiya kab galat hota hai , meter jo vo practically samjh raha hai usme variations kya hai hain ye sab..zara semi advanced qism ki baaate. dusro ko batata hai...is stage par uska kuch naam ho jata hai . log raey maange lagte hai.use aisa lagne lagta hai ki mostly use sab aa gaya.

phir vo ek- 2 logo se kabhi takra jata hai..unki baat sunkar self doubt hone lagta hai . (mere case me ye meter ke mutaliq hua tha)...use samjh aata hai ki jo knowledge hai , vo ilm to sirf practical hai..vo poochne lagta hai ye hua kaise , aaya kaise , derive kaise hua?...kya tareeka hai , kya tecnic hai?

ab phir ek naya padaaoo shuru hota hai. ab vo shayri nahi , ilm ke peeche bhaag raha hai.use pata chalta hai ki kuch samjhne ke liye pahle kuch aur samjhna hoga , aur uske pahle kuch aur in continium and in circles...is shay ka koi seera nahi. koi start nahi , koi end nahi. ek shunya sa, jisme sara ilm ho...........vo kahta hai chodo bahut seeehk liya ...jo ban paye vo shayri karo...ye sab baat apne liye nahi....

par shayri kaha hoti hai?...akhir ilm ki bhookh nahi miTti..phir se koshish shuru hoti hai..is baar systematically. pahle urdu ki basic knowledge li jati hai ki vo samjh sake technicalities, aur dheere dheere use kuch satisfaction milta hai. magar shayri ka kya hua?...vo to kuch khas improve hui nahi, itne dost , uztaaz, language teachers ,ustaad sab hone ke bawajood?

actually ab vo kuch aur hi chah raha hai...us ilm ke circle me chakkar khate khate uski mulakat hoti hai history se, use samjh aata hai ki ghazal ke sher yu hi nahi bante. uske motifs aur mazmoon ek deep rooted philosophy hai, jisko sirf mehsoos kiya jaa sakta hai, qalam band karna near impossible hai.
jis din use ye ehsaans ho jata hai ki ghazal ke sher likhne ka matlab kya hai, vo samjh jata hai ki abhi raasta bahut agee jayega, magar iski koi manzil nahi. ye raasta kahi nahi jata , na kahi khatm hota hai.

ab phir naya padaoo-ki sher kya hai...is kaifiyat ke sher ke liye kaunsa meter hai...jo vo pahle kar jata tha , jaha chahe waha lafz fit kar diya , ab use vo
karna gawara nahi...misre ke hisaab se lafz ko dhaalna hai jo uski kaifiyat ka asar rakhe, kaha par saktaa daalna hai..kaha meter me jaankar band lafzo ka istemaal karna hai , kaha open takhti chodni hai, lafzo ka aakaar kaisa hai..meter me hokar bhi kya sahi takhta sahi jagah hai?
agar flow dikhana hai to takhte ka aakaar open chaiye in positional places. agar gussa dikha rahe hai , to kis spot par band takhte se end hota lafz daalna hai...dono misro me lafaazi rabt kaisi hai?... ye koi hyrat wali baat nahi ke pahle aur ab bhi shayar hi paheliya banate hain.....

ab jab ye baat samjh aati hai ,bahut der baad sahi, to ye pata chalta hai ,ke afterall usko kuch nahi aata.
the journey restarts .

(i will write an article on this topic in due course)
is tarah ki guftugoo dekhi to ye likh baitha

awesome Zidd sahab !! a truly insightful narrative of the "snakes & ladders" game of shayari


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aadat-e-shayari naheeN jaati
   
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15th July 2014, 02:07 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by zidd View Post
Today, 05:02 PM
mai 'milestones in a poets journey' -ek article likhna chahta tha, magar mere saare thoughts jumbled up hain, isliye nahi likha.

ye waise sa topic hai , jo adeil sahab aur naaz discuss kar rahe hain abhi....so mere kuch khayaal is topic par qalamband karta hu...kya pata mera thought process saaf ho jaaye isi bahaane se.

jab koi shayri try karta hai , aur koi khas background nahi hai , to sabse pahle talafuz ki galtiya karta hai adab ke hisaab se , aam baat cheet ke hisaab se nahi...uske baad qafiye ki , meter to pata hi nahi .

agar vo kuch theek thaak kah gaya , to log use Tonkte hai..ki ispar gaur karo , uspar gaur karo....agar nahi toke to samjh jana chaiye ki sabne soch liya hai ye aadmi qabil nahi..lol..i know thats unfair , but also the bitter truth...unhiko toka jata hai jinse umeed hoti hai.

agar jazbaa hua , ya bahut hi ziyada shayri ki lat lag jaaye us waqt sukhanwar ko , to vo dhundna shuru karta hai information. net par dhundta hai...aadhi baat samjh aati hai , aadhi nahi, logo se poochna shuru karta hai , shayro se milna shuru karta hai , urdu ki jaankari lena shuru karta hai. ustad banata hai , badalta hai...ye silsila chalta rahta hai .

jaise hi basics par grasp aa jaata hai , use lagne lagta hai ki use ab aane laga hai..shayri me improvements aata hai. yu kahna bhi galat nahi ke basics aane ke baad shayri badal si jaati hai uski, kyuki use bandisho ka pata chal chuka hai...is stage par shayar dil ka shayar nahi raha ....ab dimaag bhi istemaal hone laga hai.

ab thodi uski aur taareef hone lagti hai, jinko zara kam aata hai usse sawaaal karne lagte hai...is stage par shayar ,kuch hadd tak formal ban chuka hai. ab vo knowledge dhund raha hai vigorously...shayri ke har pahlu par gaur kar raha hai....shayri bigaadne laagti hai beharbandi aur tecnic ki wajah se, but knowledge exponentially badti jati hai.

ab shayar pareshaan ho jata hai ki ye kya ho gaya? knowledge ke dayre me aaya to ulta asar ho gaya? vo shayar - knowledge ko samjhaa hi adha adhora hai, to un bandisho me shayri kaise hogi ? ab sab poora samajhne ki hoD me lag jata hai. logo ko dhundta hai , ki koi raah dikhaye. sabhi uljhane door kare uski . ustaado se baat karta hai...kuch naam ke ustaad milte hai , kuch kaam ke milte hai....unse dosti ho jati hai...seekhne ka kaam zara aasaan ho jata hai.

kuch mahine ye silsila chalta hai...theek thak chalta hai...ilm bhi badtaa hai ...shayri me pakad bhi...ilm ki khoj bani rahti hai..barikiya malum padne lagti hai ,ya use kam se kam aisa lagne lagta hai ! .ab vo dusro ko kuch hadd tak madad kar sakta hai...magar sab objective knowledge hai, but advanced qism ki, jaise bahut se aib kya hai, qafiya kab galat hota hai , meter jo vo practically samjh raha hai usme variations kya hai hain ye sab..zara semi advanced qism ki baaate. dusro ko batata hai...is stage par uska kuch naam ho jata hai . log raey maange lagte hai.use aisa lagne lagta hai ki mostly use sab aa gaya.

phir vo ek- 2 logo se kabhi takra jata hai..unki baat sunkar self doubt hone lagta hai . (mere case me ye meter ke mutaliq hua tha)...use samjh aata hai ki jo knowledge hai , vo ilm to sirf practical hai..vo poochne lagta hai ye hua kaise , aaya kaise , derive kaise hua?...kya tareeka hai , kya tecnic hai?

ab phir ek naya padaaoo shuru hota hai. ab vo shayri nahi , ilm ke peeche bhaag raha hai.use pata chalta hai ki kuch samjhne ke liye pahle kuch aur samjhna hoga , aur uske pahle kuch aur in continium and in circles...is shay ka koi seera nahi. koi start nahi , koi end nahi. ek shunya sa, jisme sara ilm ho...........vo kahta hai chodo bahut seeehk liya ...jo ban paye vo shayri karo...ye sab baat apne liye nahi....

par shayri kaha hoti hai?...akhir ilm ki bhookh nahi miTti..phir se koshish shuru hoti hai..is baar systematically. pahle urdu ki basic knowledge li jati hai ki vo samjh sake technicalities, aur dheere dheere use kuch satisfaction milta hai. magar shayri ka kya hua?...vo to kuch khas improve hui nahi, itne dost , uztaaz, language teachers ,ustaad sab hone ke bawajood?

actually ab vo kuch aur hi chah raha hai...us ilm ke circle me chakkar khate khate uski mulakat hoti hai history se, use samjh aata hai ki ghazal ke sher yu hi nahi bante. uske motifs aur mazmoon ek deep rooted philosophy hai, jisko sirf mehsoos kiya jaa sakta hai, qalam band karna near impossible hai.
jis din use ye ehsaans ho jata hai ki ghazal ke sher likhne ka matlab kya hai, vo samjh jata hai ki abhi raasta bahut agee jayega, magar iski koi manzil nahi. ye raasta kahi nahi jata , na kahi khatm hota hai.

ab phir naya padaoo-ki sher kya hai...is kaifiyat ke sher ke liye kaunsa meter hai...jo vo pahle kar jata tha , jaha chahe waha lafz fit kar diya , ab use vo karna gawara nahi...misre ke hisaab se lafz ko dhaalna hai jo uski kaifiyat ka asar rakhe, kaha par saktaa daalna hai..kaha meter me jaankar band lafzo ka istemaal karna hai , kaha open takhti chodni hai, lafzo ka aakaar kaisa hai..meter me hokar bhi kya sahi takhta sahi jagah hai?
agar flow dikhana hai to takhte ka aakaar open chaiye in positional places. agar gussa dikha rahe hai , to kis spot par band takhte se end hota lafz daalna hai...dono misro me lafaazi rabt kaisi hai?... ye koi hyrat wali baat nahi ke pahle aur ab bhi shayar hi paheliya banate hain.....

ab jab ye baat samjh aati hai ,bahut der baad sahi, to ye pata chalta hai ,ke afterall usko kuch nahi aata.
the journey restarts .


(i will write an article on this topic in due course)
is tarah ki guftugoo dekhi to ye likh baitha
Ziddsaab,

aapne toh hame scapegoat banaa diya LOLzzzz.... jokes apart....
aapkii yeh baat bilkul sahi hai aur hamse bilkul taalluq bhii rakhtee hai.. aur mere khayaal se shaayad sabhii shaayar jo yahaa.n kuch sikhne aaye hai.n unse bhii..

hame.n aapkii article ka intezaar rahega.......



ख़ुदा परेशां तेरी बला से तेरे सितम से तेरे अधम से
अगर हसीँ होते ज़ुल्म तेरे तू भी तो कुछ शर्मसार होता



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15th July 2014, 02:11 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ahmad Hyderabadi View Post
Aadaab Zidd bhaee....

Agar munaasib samjhayn aur fursat milay tou aapsay Ghayr-muraddaf ghazal par nazr ki guzaarish haye. Is say ham sab kay ilm mayn ghazal ki iqsaam ko samjhnay mayn izaafa hoga!! Waqt ki koee tangee nahee.. aap apni fursat say is par roashnee daalayn.

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Ahmad
Ahmadbhai,
bahot hi khub mudda uThaya hai

Quote:
Originally Posted by zidd View Post
aapka hukm sar ankho par..aapko to pata hi hai ke mai kuch yu hi nahi kah dunga..jaise definition de diya etc.

i will come out with a complete history and the nuances and acecdotes regarding that
Ziddsaab,
your detailed definition and explanation with history & synopsis will be awaited

shaayad aur bhii savaal zehn me.n aaye



ख़ुदा परेशां तेरी बला से तेरे सितम से तेरे अधम से
अगर हसीँ होते ज़ुल्म तेरे तू भी तो कुछ शर्मसार होता



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15th July 2014, 04:02 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by N@zneen View Post
Ye Zidd ki Autobiography hai aur kuch nahin
Naaz,
ustaado.n se iis tarah baate.n nahi karte



ख़ुदा परेशां तेरी बला से तेरे सितम से तेरे अधम से
अगर हसीँ होते ज़ुल्म तेरे तू भी तो कुछ शर्मसार होता



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15th July 2014, 06:55 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by zidd View Post
Today, 05:02 PM
mai 'milestones in a poets journey' -ek article likhna chahta tha, magar mere saare thoughts jumbled up hain, isliye nahi likha.

ye waise sa topic hai , jo adeil sahab aur naaz discuss kar rahe hain abhi....so mere kuch khayaal is topic par qalamband karta hu...kya pata mera thought process saaf ho jaaye isi bahaane se.

jab koi shayri try karta hai , aur koi khas background nahi hai , to sabse pahle talafuz ki galtiya karta hai adab ke hisaab se , aam baat cheet ke hisaab se nahi...uske baad qafiye ki , meter to pata hi nahi .

agar vo kuch theek thaak kah gaya , to log use Tonkte hai..ki ispar gaur karo , uspar gaur karo....agar nahi toke to samjh jana chaiye ki sabne soch liya hai ye aadmi qabil nahi..lol..i know thats unfair , but also the bitter truth...unhiko toka jata hai jinse umeed hoti hai.

agar jazbaa hua , ya bahut hi ziyada shayri ki lat lag jaaye us waqt sukhanwar ko , to vo dhundna shuru karta hai information. net par dhundta hai...aadhi baat samjh aati hai , aadhi nahi, logo se poochna shuru karta hai , shayro se milna shuru karta hai , urdu ki jaankari lena shuru karta hai. ustad banata hai , badalta hai...ye silsila chalta rahta hai .

jaise hi basics par grasp aa jaata hai , use lagne lagta hai ki use ab aane laga hai..shayri me improvements aata hai. yu kahna bhi galat nahi ke basics aane ke baad shayri badal si jaati hai uski, kyuki use bandisho ka pata chal chuka hai...is stage par shayar dil ka shayar nahi raha ....ab dimaag bhi istemaal hone laga hai.

ab thodi uski aur taareef hone lagti hai, jinko zara kam aata hai usse sawaaal karne lagte hai...is stage par shayar ,kuch hadd tak formal ban chuka hai. ab vo knowledge dhund raha hai vigorously...shayri ke har pahlu par gaur kar raha hai....shayri bigaadne laagti hai beharbandi aur tecnic ki wajah se, but knowledge exponentially badti jati hai.

ab shayar pareshaan ho jata hai ki ye kya ho gaya? knowledge ke dayre me aaya to ulta asar ho gaya? vo shayar - knowledge ko samjhaa hi adha adhora hai, to un bandisho me shayri kaise hogi ? ab sab poora samajhne ki hoD me lag jata hai. logo ko dhundta hai , ki koi raah dikhaye. sabhi uljhane door kare uski . ustaado se baat karta hai...kuch naam ke ustaad milte hai , kuch kaam ke milte hai....unse dosti ho jati hai...seekhne ka kaam zara aasaan ho jata hai.

kuch mahine ye silsila chalta hai...theek thak chalta hai...ilm bhi badtaa hai ...shayri me pakad bhi...ilm ki khoj bani rahti hai..barikiya malum padne lagti hai ,ya use kam se kam aisa lagne lagta hai ! .ab vo dusro ko kuch hadd tak madad kar sakta hai...magar sab objective knowledge hai, but advanced qism ki, jaise bahut se aib kya hai, qafiya kab galat hota hai , meter jo vo practically samjh raha hai usme variations kya hai hain ye sab..zara semi advanced qism ki baaate. dusro ko batata hai...is stage par uska kuch naam ho jata hai . log raey maange lagte hai.use aisa lagne lagta hai ki mostly use sab aa gaya.

phir vo ek- 2 logo se kabhi takra jata hai..unki baat sunkar self doubt hone lagta hai . (mere case me ye meter ke mutaliq hua tha)...use samjh aata hai ki jo knowledge hai , vo ilm to sirf practical hai..vo poochne lagta hai ye hua kaise , aaya kaise , derive kaise hua?...kya tareeka hai , kya tecnic hai?

ab phir ek naya padaaoo shuru hota hai. ab vo shayri nahi , ilm ke peeche bhaag raha hai.use pata chalta hai ki kuch samjhne ke liye pahle kuch aur samjhna hoga , aur uske pahle kuch aur in continium and in circles...is shay ka koi seera nahi. koi start nahi , koi end nahi. ek shunya sa, jisme sara ilm ho...........vo kahta hai chodo bahut seeehk liya ...jo ban paye vo shayri karo...ye sab baat apne liye nahi....

par shayri kaha hoti hai?...akhir ilm ki bhookh nahi miTti..phir se koshish shuru hoti hai..is baar systematically. pahle urdu ki basic knowledge li jati hai ki vo samjh sake technicalities, aur dheere dheere use kuch satisfaction milta hai. magar shayri ka kya hua?...vo to kuch khas improve hui nahi, itne dost , uztaaz, language teachers ,ustaad sab hone ke bawajood?

actually ab vo kuch aur hi chah raha hai...us ilm ke circle me chakkar khate khate uski mulakat hoti hai history se, use samjh aata hai ki ghazal ke sher yu hi nahi bante. uske motifs aur mazmoon ek deep rooted philosophy hai, jisko sirf mehsoos kiya jaa sakta hai, qalam band karna near impossible hai.
jis din use ye ehsaans ho jata hai ki ghazal ke sher likhne ka matlab kya hai, vo samjh jata hai ki abhi raasta bahut agee jayega, magar iski koi manzil nahi. ye raasta kahi nahi jata , na kahi khatm hota hai.

ab phir naya padaoo-ki sher kya hai...is kaifiyat ke sher ke liye kaunsa meter hai...jo vo pahle kar jata tha , jaha chahe waha lafz fit kar diya , ab use vo karna gawara nahi...misre ke hisaab se lafz ko dhaalna hai jo uski kaifiyat ka asar rakhe, kaha par saktaa daalna hai..kaha meter me jaankar band lafzo ka istemaal karna hai , kaha open takhti chodni hai, lafzo ka aakaar kaisa hai..meter me hokar bhi kya sahi takhta sahi jagah hai?
agar flow dikhana hai to takhte ka aakaar open chaiye in positional places. agar gussa dikha rahe hai , to kis spot par band takhte se end hota lafz daalna hai...dono misro me lafaazi rabt kaisi hai?... ye koi hyrat wali baat nahi ke pahle aur ab bhi shayar hi paheliya banate hain.....

ab jab ye baat samjh aati hai ,bahut der baad sahi, to ye pata chalta hai ,ke afterall usko kuch nahi aata.
the journey restarts .


(i will write an article on this topic in due course)
is tarah ki guftugoo dekhi to ye likh baitha
haha Sir .. aadha se jyada to lagaa mujhpar hi likha gaya hai.. or is baat se aap bhalibhanti waqif bhi haiN.. :P

your article on this topic with history and anecdotes are now much awaited...


Binaa tere ... khudaa mere.. seher kaisii.. safar kaisaa..
KaheeN daryaa kaheeN pyaasaa idhar bhatkaa udhar bhatkaa ~
- Abhi Tamrakar
   
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8th September 2015, 11:30 AM

waah kamaal ka thread padhne ko mila aaj...aur shuru kiya hai hamari zainy sahiba ne..bahut shukriya zainy ji aapka.......poora to nahi padh payi par jo do page padhe unse itna to samjha payi hoon...ki ye ham jaise nursery students ke liye ek guide ki tarah hai..
...main sabhi un members se darkhwasht karoongi jinhe wakai sher ya ghazal ke sahi mayne janne aur seekhne ka man hai...ki is thread ko padhein..aur sawaal bhi karein...hamare sawaal sunkar hamare ustaad jawaab dene zaroor aayenge ye ummeed karti hoon....



अर्ज मेरी एे खुदा क्या सुन सकेगा तू कभी
आसमां को बस इसी इक आस में तकते रहे
madhu..
   
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zainy
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8th September 2015, 08:02 PM

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Zainy


PalkoN ki baand ko tod ke daaman pe aa gira
Ek aaNsu mere zabt ki tauheen kar gaya...

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