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aadeil
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18th June 2014, 10:23 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by sameer'shaad' View Post
isi mudde se related ek chota sa sawaal arz karnaa chahunga gar ijaazat ho to......

ek ghazal, ya sher likhne ke liye pahle kyaa taiyaar karna chahiye... kaafiyaa, radeef, behar, ya khayaal....

main aksar isi sawaal me ulajh jaaya kartaa hoon, agar aap isme kuch roshnii daal sakenge to mujh ko behad tasalli mil jaaegii... aur aage se thodii mushkil aasaan ho jaay akaregii...

main aksar hii ruk jaata hoon pen haanth lagaane se pahle,
kis soch me hun , kya behr chunooN , aur kyaa khaakaa taiyaar karooN.....
Shoaib bhai,
main apnee taknik yahaaN bataanaa chahunga..
Main khayaal ko pehel deta hooN.. kyuN ki agar aapke zehen meN agar koii idea hi na aaye toh aap kuch nahi likh payenge.
usee khayaal ke base pe maiN radeef aur kafiye sochta hooN (in respective order).
aur phir pehle sher ko beher meN bithaane kii koshish karta hooN. phir use gungunata hooN (Zainyji, aaj tak kisii ne mujhe pitaa nahi hai )
isskii dhun agar baith gayee toh phir baaki sher usee dhun pe set karte jata hooN. ha, kaee baar yeh hota hai ki 2/3 ashaar ke baad ruk bhii jaataa hooN magar phir thode dinoN baad usee ko leke baith jata hooN. par aisa bahot kam hua hai. jyaadaatar ashaar baith jaate haiN aur ghazal apne aap ban jaati hai .

shaayad mera yeh tarikaa bilkul sahi naa bhii ho, par yeh meri taknik hai

Zidd saab aur Ufaq saab apnee raae qaayam kareN



ख़ुदा परेशां तेरी बला से तेरे सितम से तेरे अधम से
अगर हसीँ होते ज़ुल्म तेरे तू भी तो कुछ शर्मसार होता



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18th June 2014, 10:28 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by zidd View Post
generally yu hota hai ki koi accha idea aa jata hai mostly achanak.
phir us par ek sher ban jata hai.

ab aap us radeef qafiye se bandh gaye.

phir ye sochna hai ki ye radeef -qafiya kis beher me khapega.

phir ghazal banane baithe..bani to bani varna fard sahi ...kisi dusri ghazal ke upar latkaane ke aam ayegi.

uske baad radeef qawaif khud idea dene lagte hai...suggest karte hai ki unka kya kiya jaaye..

generally ghazal me yehi hota hai...kyui sab sher independent hai...

haa, nazm me aisa nahi....mujhe lagta hai nazm likhne wale ziyada mehnat karte hai...magar nazm sunnewale aksar bore ho jaate hai....

mere khayaal se ghazal isliye bhi like ki jati hai ki kam attention span chaiye sunnewale ko...lihne wale ko bhi aaraam...2 line likhi ...kaam khatm.

all said and done the history of nazm is only 100 years old and that too coz of printing technology..ki log usko pad sakte hai ab...varna kaun jhanjhat mole? ....ghazal sunne ki cheez hai nazm likhne ki.

oh magar ye mai kaha se kaha pahuch gaya..
lamba lecture du iske pahle full stop laga deta hu
ooops!!!!!
Zidd saahab, aapka jawaab padhne se pehle hi maine apna reply post kar diya, any way, padhne ke baad lagtaa hai ki meri taknik kuch hadd tak sahi hai



ख़ुदा परेशां तेरी बला से तेरे सितम से तेरे अधम से
अगर हसीँ होते ज़ुल्म तेरे तू भी तो कुछ शर्मसार होता



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18th June 2014, 10:41 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by zidd View Post
is baat ka jawaab bahut kaTin hai...
ab aapne 'sher' lafz istemaaal kiya hai to mai samjhta hu ye sawaal ghazalgoyi e dayre me hai , us dayre me simit ye reply kar raha hu.

is sawaal se pahle ye sawaal ka jawaab dena hoga


Ek SAHI sher likhne ke liye kin baatoN ko dyaan me rakhna chahiye..

ab is sawaal ko attempt karta hu mai...kyuki pahla sawaal subjecyive hai ..maine use pahle objective banaya hai...phir us pahle sawaal ko try karte hai sab.

ek sahi sher ke liye ye zaruri hai.

1] ki sher har haalaat me metered ho, yani ki behrband ho.
2] grammar bilkul sahi ho .
3] sher bharti ke lafzo se aazaad ho.
4]sher ke lafz , usme darj jazbaat se zyada na bole ya chillayen.

agla sawaal phir dekhta hu...baqi dosto se bhi guzarish hai ke apne opinion rakhe yaha , rai den. ki sahi sher kya hai..acccha ya kitne darje accha ki baat nahi philhaal, bus ek sahi sher kya hai.
Zidd saab aur Ufaq saab kii points meN maiN aur ek point joRna chaahunga. jaise ki Zidd saab ne bataayaa ki yeh sawaal gazalgoee ke daaire meN hai toh, yeh point bhii ahem hai:
6] Har ek sher meN kaafiye aur radeef (agar ho toh) sahii hone chaahiye.



ख़ुदा परेशां तेरी बला से तेरे सितम से तेरे अधम से
अगर हसीँ होते ज़ुल्म तेरे तू भी तो कुछ शर्मसार होता



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zainy
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18th June 2014, 11:20 AM

chaliye saare points summarise karte hain.

ek sahi sher ke liye ye zaruri hai.

1]Har ek sher meN kaafiye aur radeef (agar ho toh) sahii hone chaahiye
2] ki sher har haalaat me metered ho, yani ki behrband ho.
3] grammar bilkul sahi ho .
4] sher bharti ke lafzo se aazaad ho.
5]sher ke lafz , usme darj jazbaat se zyada na bole ya chillayen.
6]sher Ke Dino misro Me ek rabt hona chaahiye

with courtesy zidd sahab , ufaq sahab and aadil sahab..

to agle sawaal ki taraf badhein?






Zainy


PalkoN ki baand ko tod ke daaman pe aa gira
Ek aaNsu mere zabt ki tauheen kar gaya...

Nm
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18th June 2014, 11:23 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by zidd View Post
ufaqji se meri e darkhwast hai ki us aib
Aib e do lakht

is baare me thoda sa hame jaan kaari den.
kyuki meri ilm ki tishnagi bhuji nahi is topic par, specially jab mai bilkul alag nazariya rakhta hu.

its a request...lets have a healthy debate on this aib(defect)...maybe if you wish you can make a new thread.

regards
Sahib......main bahut aalsi bandana hu ....mujhe to ek comment karna bhi bhaari lagtaa hai ......nayaa thread banana ya koi article likhnaa mere maqdoor se baahar ki baat hai......phir bh aapki baat ko taalne ki himmat nahi hai is khaaksaar me......so Koshish karta hu....
   
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Thumbs down 18th June 2014, 04:01 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by ufaq View Post
Sabse pahale to aadil sahib aapko aapki koshish Ke liye daad.....pahale socha ki aapne jawaab De hi diya hai.......chhodo kyaa comment karna.....phir janaab newton Ka kuch kahaa yaad Aa gaya.......our greatest weakness is giving up to apni haqeer raay zaahir lagne Aa gayaa hu....Jo aage tafseel se darj hai

DO-LAKHT Ka maani hai.......do tukhde.....yaani jab sher Ke do misre alag-2 baat kahe to use DO-LAKHT kahate hai ....Jo ki bahut bada aib hai....

Missal Ke liye ek chhota sa qissa suniye.......

Ek baar janaab haidar Ali aatish Ke paas unke ek shaagird apna ye sher lekar aaye

Fasl-e gul me'n mujhe kahtaa hai kih gulshan se nikal
aisii be-par kii udhaataa thaa na saiyaad kabhii

Is sher par aatish sahib ki islaah dekhiye.....

Par katar kar mujhe kahtaa hai kih gulshan se nikal
aisii be-par kii udhaataa thaa nah saiyaad kabhii

original sher me...aisii be-par ki...kahaa gaya hai....kaisii be-par kii???oola me kahi zikr nahi hai. Ki be-par se kya matlab hai ...main khud ko duhraata hu ki dono misro'n me koi rabt nahi tha......be-par Ka koi mafhoom nahi tha....lekin aatish saahib ne par katarne waali baat kahkar mafhoom khol diye...jaankaari Ke liye pataa du ki sher Ke mafhoom nikalte waqt aap kisi itne important lafz ko yu'n hi khaaiz nahi kar sakte agar WO lafz ko shaair justify nahi kar pa raha hai to sher ko ek baar dubaara dekhne ki zaroorat hai... .


Kahane ki koi zaroorat nahi ki pahle sher me DO LAKHT tha Jo aatish saahib ne door kar diya.....lekin do-lakht ko pakadna itna aasan nahi hai aur main apni baat phir duharaata hu.....do lakht ko pakadnaa aasan nahi hai

Ghaalib jaise shaair bhi is aib se Bach nahi paaye....unka ek sher dikhiye

aataa hai mere qatl ko par josh-e rashk se
martaa huu;N us ke haath me;N talvaar dekh kar

NazM sahib ne Ghalib Ke is sher par objection kiya tha ki agar agar qaati Ke haath me talwaar hai to mujhe khauf hogaa rashk nahi hogaa..unki baat bhi sahii hai aur is baat ki dalil hai ki circumstances ek jaise ho iska MATLAB ye nahi ki sher Ke dono misro'n me rabt ho gayaa...sher Ke alfaaz ki possibilities Ka khayaal karna zaroori hai..lekin mujhe lagta hai sher Ke dono misro'n me rabt hai...Ghalib kahana Cha rahe hai ki ..WO mere qatl ko talwaar lekar Aa raha hai ...mujhe jalan ho rahii hai ki qaash talwaar mere haath me hoti to main uske qatl ko jaata...yahaa Marne se MATLAB jalan se marna hai na ki jaan se haath dho bhaithana...

Meri auqaat nahi ki Ghalib Ke sher par kuch kahu islie is sher ki baabat
Janab nazm Tabataba'i ke khyaal zaahir kare raha hu Koi agar mere qatl ko haath me talwaar lekar Aa raha hai to mujhe uske haath me talwaar dekhkar kyun rashk hogaa...dono misro'n me rabt nahi hai.....nazm saahib Urdu shaairi Ke bahut bade adiib the..unki kisi baat ko halke me nahi liya jana chaahiye lekin baad me bahut se aadiibo me is masle par unki purzor khilaafat ki thii...khud mujhe lagtaa hai dono misro me ek saaf rabt hai isliye Maine kahaa thaa ki DO-LAHT ko pakadnaa aasan nahi hai.....ek tarah se main zidd sahib ki baat ko support kar raha hu aur unki is baat Ki mukhaalfat bhi kar raha hu ki kuch bhi black & white nahi hai......as I said ki aib-e-Do lakht pakadnaa aasan nahi hai .....lekin na-mumkin bhi nahi hai.....
Zidd sahib ne farmaaish ki thii ki DO-LAKHT par khulkar kahu to socha apni purane comment me'n hi kuch baate'n jod deta hu....kyaa karu aalsi fitrat ka

Lekin ek sach ye bhi hai ki agar shaairi se Judi kisi baat ko samajhna hai to ustaad shaair Ke ashaar se achcha koi zariya nahi hai.....yaha Maine BLUE FONTS me in ashaar ki explanation ki hai ...ye explanation sabit kar dengi ( mujhe lagaa hai) ki do-lakht ko pakadna na-mumkin nahi hai...aur sirf circumstances same hone par do misro me rabt hone ki koi guarantee nahi hai
   
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18th June 2014, 04:29 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by ufaq View Post
Zidd sahib ne farmaaish ki thii ki DO-LAKHT par khulkar kahu to socha apni purane comment me'n hi kuch baate'n jod deta hu....kyaa karu aalsi fitrat ka

Lekin ek sach ye bhi hai ki agar shaairi se Judi kisi baat ko samajhna hai to ustaad shaair Ke ashaar se achcha koi zariya nahi hai.....yaha Maine BLUE FONTS me in ashaar ki explanation ki hai ...ye explanation sabit kar dengi ( mujhe lagaa hai) ki do-lakht ko pakadna na-mumkin nahi hai...aur sirf circumstances same hone par do misro me rabt hone ki koi guarantee nahi hai
Ufaq saab,
muafee chahoonga agar koii gustakhee huii ho


aataa hai mere qatl ko par josh-e rashk se
martaa huu;N us ke haath me;N talvaar dekh kar


NazM sahib ne Ghalib Ke is sher par objection kiya tha ki agar agar qaati Ke haath me talwaar hai to mujhe khauf hogaa rashk nahi hogaa..unki baat bhi sahii hai aur is baat ki dalil hai ki circumstances ek jaise ho iska MATLAB ye nahi ki sher Ke dono misro'n me rabt ho gayaa...sher Ke alfaaz ki possibilities Ka khayaal karna zaroori hai..lekin mujhe lagta hai sher Ke dono misro'n me rabt hai...Ghalib kahana Cha rahe hai ki ..WO mere qatl ko talwaar lekar Aa raha hai ...mujhe jalan ho rahii hai ki qaash talwaar mere haath me hoti to main uske qatl ko jaata...yahaa Marne se MATLAB jalan se marna hai na ki jaan se haath dho bhaithana...


Ghalib saab ke iss sher pe hi aate hai...
maiN aapse iss baat pe sehmat huN ki yeh sher bilkul rabt meN hai.. aur Ghalib saab koii sipahi ya soldier toh nahi the..
We ek shaayar the.. toh zaahir si baat hai ki iss sher ko ek philosophical view diya jaaye...
pehle misre meN wo qaatil ke qatl karne ke liye aane kii baat kar rahe haiN.. aur wo qatil iss liye qatl karna chahta/chahti (agar unka ishaaraa unkee lover kii ore ho) kyun ki use shaayar kii kisii baat pe rashk hai, ab woh baat kya hai? woh hum dusre misre meN dhundhte haiN..
shaayar (Ghalib saab) dusre misre meN kehte haiN ki unko qaatil ka khauf nahi hai, kyuN ki we toh vaise bhii qatil ke haath meN talvaar dekh kar hi mar jaayenge? (yahaaN thoda philosophical view point zaroori ho jaataa hai) talvaar se we kya represent karna chahte haiN? mehbooba ka ghussa? unkii ankheN? unkee adaa? yeh thoda pechida hai..
toh agar shaayar sirf mehbooba ki kisii zalak ya adaa pe hi marne (fida hone) ko agar tayaar hai, toh use talvaar ke vaar kii kya fikr? aur usii baat pe qaatil ko rashk toh hona hi hai?

yeh meri samajh hai jo maine bayaan kii hai views may differ



ख़ुदा परेशां तेरी बला से तेरे सितम से तेरे अधम से
अगर हसीँ होते ज़ुल्म तेरे तू भी तो कुछ शर्मसार होता



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18th June 2014, 05:08 PM

Actually itna zyada likhte likhte most of the times mudda kho jata hu...

phir se con-size karke mudda saamne lata hu pointed way me....upar discussion ka nichod , uska essence yu samjh lijiye.

ye samjh aa raha hai ki ye 'aib e dolakht' , rabt kam hone ya kam hone ka defect hai.

literal meaning jaa raha hai kuch aise- do misra sher ka, do alag alag baat bol raha hai.

-------------------------------------------

ab is defect 'AIB E DOLAKHT' me muskil ye hai ki ye koi usool to ho nahi sakta , kyuki usool kabhi jhutlaya nahi jaa sakta....matlab ye ki jis cheez par 2 raey ho sake that cannot be a principle (usool )

aur ye aib to individual interpretation par hai...kisiko aib lagega , kisiko nahi....jaise upar darj arguement hi le lijiye.

ghalib sahab ka sher hai jispar ustad nazm sahab kahte hai usme aib e dolakht ' hai , magar koi aur agree nahi karta hai us baat par.

vo isliye ki ye subjective issue hai...

mera opinion ye hai ki 'rabt kam hona' aisi koi cheez nahi hoti. kuch sunnewale ko bhi imagine karna padta hai ki shayar kya kah raha hai.
yahi wajah hai ki sabko sab sher pasand nahi aate....

ab subjective issue hai ye 'rabt'..it cannot be called a defect in the true sense.bahut logo ko abstract sher pasand aate hai. seedhe ashar pasand nahi aate

(i am saying all this just to provoke a discussion)
   
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18th June 2014, 06:58 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by aadeil View Post
Ufaq saab,
muafee chahoonga agar koii gustakhee huii ho


aataa hai mere qatl ko par josh-e rashk se
martaa huu;N us ke haath me;N talvaar dekh kar


NazM sahib ne Ghalib Ke is sher par objection kiya tha ki agar agar qaati Ke haath me talwaar hai to mujhe khauf hogaa rashk nahi hogaa..unki baat bhi sahii hai aur is baat ki dalil hai ki circumstances ek jaise ho iska MATLAB ye nahi ki sher Ke dono misro'n me rabt ho gayaa...sher Ke alfaaz ki possibilities Ka khayaal karna zaroori hai..lekin mujhe lagta hai sher Ke dono misro'n me rabt hai...Ghalib kahana Cha rahe hai ki ..WO mere qatl ko talwaar lekar Aa raha hai ...mujhe jalan ho rahii hai ki qaash talwaar mere haath me hoti to main uske qatl ko jaata...yahaa Marne se MATLAB jalan se marna hai na ki jaan se haath dho bhaithana...


Ghalib saab ke iss sher pe hi aate hai...
maiN aapse iss baat pe sehmat huN ki yeh sher bilkul rabt meN hai.. aur Ghalib saab koii sipahi ya soldier toh nahi the.. bhai ...ye kahaa'n likha hai ki talwaar sirf sipaahi pakad sakta hai.....Maine qaatil lafz Ka istemaal kiya aur sipaahi qaatil nahi hote
We ek shaayar the.. toh zaahir si baat hai ki iss sher ko ek philosophical view diya jaaye...bhai.. Shaayar philosopher bhi nahi hota.....haa'n kuch iqbaal se shaair hote par exceptions are everywhere......aur bhai..poetry aur philosophy alag alag subject hai
pehle misre meN wo qaatil ke qatl karne ke liye aane kii baat kar rahe haiN.. aur wo qatil iss liye qatl karna chahta/chahti (agar unka ishaaraa unkee lover kii ore ho) kyun ki use shaayar kii kisii baat pe rashk hai, bhai ....oola ghaur se pade....ghaalib kahate hai ......par josh e rashk se....PAR ...is conjunction ko use karne Ka MATLAB hai...rashk qaatil ko nahi hai ghaalib Ko hai...ab woh baat kya hai? woh hum dusre misre meN dhundhte haiN..
shaayar (Ghalib saab) dusre misre meN kehte haiN ki unko qaatil ka khauf nahi hai, kyuN ki we toh vaise bhii qatil ke haath meN talvaar dekh kar hi mar jaayenge? (yahaaN thoda philosophical view point zaroori ho jaataa hai) talvaar se we kya represent karna chahte haiN? mehbooba ka ghussa? unkii ankheN? unkee adaa? yeh thoda pechida hai..bhai jaan.....ye mahbooba ....uski adaa Ka zikr kahaa se Aa gayaa...ghaalib saahib ne kyaa koi aisa hint diya hai jiske base par aap is sher ko rumaani rang De rahe hai..sorry to say lekin aisa koi hint mujhe nahi dikh raha hai..
toh agar shaayar sirf mehbooba ki kisii zalak ya adaa pe hi marne (fida hone) ko agar tayaar hai, toh use talvaar ke vaar kii kya fikr? aur usii baat pe qaatil ko rashk toh hona hi hai?

yeh meri samajh hai jo maine bayaan kii hai views may differ
Bhai don't want to let you down....lekin aapki explanation Ka koi bhi sira meri pakad se baahar hai.....for readers' convenience let me make it clear that blue fonts are my words.........

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18th June 2014, 07:19 PM

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Actually itna zyada likhte likhte most of the times mudda kho jata hu.

agree.....baat achchey sher se shuru hokar Ghalib Ke sher ki explanation tak Aa gayi hai..

phir se con-size karke mudda saamne lata hu pointed way me....upar discussion ka nichod , uska essence yu samjh lijiye.

ye samjh aa raha hai ki ye 'aib e dolakht' , rabt kam hone ya kam hone ka defect hai.

literal meaning jaa raha hai kuch aise- do misra sher ka, do alag alag baat bol raha hai.

-------------------------------------------

ab is defect 'AIB E DOLAKHT' me muskil ye hai ki ye koi usool to ho nahi sakta , kyuki usool kabhi jhutlaya nahi jaa sakta....matlab ye ki jis cheez par 2 raey ho sake that cannot be a principle (usool )

aur ye aib to individual interpretation par hai...kisiko aib lagega , kisiko nahi....jaise upar darj arguement hi le lijiye.

janaab.....aatish sahib wali missal bhi maujood hai.....jahaa'n aankh moondkar bhi kahaa ja sakta hai ki DO-LAKHT hai...aur ab koi sher ko ghalat interpret kare to kyaa koi kar sakta hai missal Ke taur par abhi -2 aadeil sahib ne Ghalib Ke sher ki Jo interpretation ki ...WO haazir hai.....

ghalib sahab ka sher hai jispar ustad nazm sahab kahte hai usme aib e dolakht ' hai , magar koi aur agree nahi karta hai us baat par.

vo isliye ki ye subjective issue hai...

mera opinion ye hai ki 'rabt kam hona' aisi koi cheez nahi hoti. kuch sunnewale ko bhi imagine karna padta hai ki shayar kya kah raha hai.
yahi wajah hai ki sabko sab sher pasand nahi aate....

ab subjective issue hai ye 'rabt'..it cannot be called a defect in the true sense.bahut logo ko abstract sher pasand aate hai. seedhe ashar pasand nahi aate

(i am saying all this just to provoke a discussion)
Main to thak gayaa hu.........is discussion Se.... I QUIT
   
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18th June 2014, 09:37 PM

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Main to thak gayaa hu.........is discussion Se.... I QUIT
oh ho ufaq sahab...itna jaldi quit?

abhi to aaapne kuch kaha hi nahi hai?

ye to literary tussle hai....aaapne kuch kaha to dusro ne kuch kaha...

isme naariizgi ki kya baat?

bus itna hi to kaha ki jo aapne bataya usko proove karo?..kya galat kaha kisine?

yaha koi sunne ke liye thode hai sirf...agar koi kuch kahta hai to usse kya clarification nahi manga jaa sakta?

sirf sunkar kya ilm badta hai?..ilm to bahs hi se badta hai...


khafaa na hoiye janaab...aaiye....you have a point to prove rationally...
aapne aatish sahab ka hawala diya hai ...to saamne wala kya kahna chahta hai unke baare me ye bhi to suiniye...?

abhi to maumla garm hua hai...hum yaha aaye yu hai?...seeehne sekhane hi ke liye na?

varna aapko ye 'aib e do lakht batane ki kya zarurat thi?...aap bhi to yahi chahte hai na ki sab seekhe sikhaaye?...varna aap aur mai sirf apni ghazal post karke chal na dete?

aaoo uafaq bhai lets do something constructive by fighting
   
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19th June 2014, 02:00 AM

Zidd sahab.......do baate'n

(1) ham log Urdu poetry Ke adiib nahi hai......ki kisi usool ki rationality par bahas kare....hamse laakh guna jiyaada jaankaar bande ne ye rule banaaya hoga......ye rule mera invention to hai nahi ki ise prove karna mera farz ban jaata ho......Maine sirf ye kahaa ki DO-LAKHT kis aib ko kahate hai.....ab use maanna ya na maanna aapkii personal choice hai.......

(2) ghalti sab se hoti hai.....ye to suna hi hoga aapne.....agar ghaalib sahab Ke sher ki nazm sahib ne ghalat interpretation kar Di to kyaa hairat??????? Waise bhi Ghalib apni poetry ki toughness ko lekar badnaam hai......ek baat bataaiye Ghalib is alaawa kitne shaair hai....jinke ashaar samajhne Ke liye dimaagh Ke ghaude'n daudane ki zaroorat mahsoos hoti hai......

main aapki is baat ki purzor mukhaalfat karta hu...ki sher ki interpretation har koi apni -2 imagination Ka sahaara lekar kar sakta hai...imagination karna poet Ka kaam hai ....ham sirf uske istemaal kiye alfaaz Ka sahaara lekar interpret kar sakte hai......ek example dikhaata hu ki sahi interpretation kis tarah hoti hai..

Ghalib wale subjected sher me.......ghaur karne wali baat ye hai ki saani me aakhiri Alfaaz hai......josh e rashk se......aur oola Ka pahala lafz hai....Marta hu........dono ko jodkar dekhiye to kyaa banaa......rashk se Marta hu.......jaisa ki ek set phrase bhi hai JALAN SE MARNA.........ab sawaal hai ki kyunkar Ghalib ne is baat ko oola aur saani me do hisso'n me baa'ntkar kahaa......ek common reader kahega ....bah'r ki problem hogii.....lekin sachchaai isse koso door hai.......ghaalib ne tarsii ( parallelism ) Ke motive se aisa kiya.....nazm saahib ki raay thii ki khauf se marna hona chaahiye......lekin ye ek aam baat hoti....aur Ghalib aam baat kahate hi kab the........unhone ek alag baat kahi........mere qatl ko WO ( raqiib , kyu'nki Jo aapka qatl karna chaahata ho..WO Habib nahi ho sakta) talwaar lekar Aa raha hai ..mujhe Jalan hai ki talwaar uske pass hai.....qaash mere pass hoti ......( rashk tabhi paidaa hota hai jab koi cheez dosre Ke paas hoti hai...aur aap chaahate hai ki WO aapke paas ho )......i

.


Is tarah samjha ja sakta hai ki interpretation shaair Ke alfaaz ke bina par hoti hai......apne dil ki baseless imagination par nahi......aur jab alfaaz par interpretation hogi to 99.99% cases me WO unique hogi

Aur jab unique hogi to aapne DO-LAKHT par Jo ilzaam lagaaye hai...WO khud-ba khud khaariz ho jaate hai..........
   
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19th June 2014, 02:07 AM

Aur janaab koi naraazagi nahi hai.....main ye bahas khatm kar raha hu kyu'nki .....mera usool hai ...bahas tab karo jab aapko lage aap ghalat ho sakte ho....taaki aapko pataa lag sake ki sahi kyaa hai???????

If you know you r right to phir to phir TATA BYE- BYE kahakar nikal lo.....

Khuda aapko apni amaan me rakhe.........
   
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19th June 2014, 10:06 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by ufaq View Post
Aur janaab koi naraazagi nahi hai.....main ye bahas khatm kar raha hu kyu'nki .....mera usool hai ...bahas tab karo jab aapko lage aap ghalat ho sakte ho....taaki aapko pataa lag sake ki sahi kyaa hai???????

If you know you r right to phir to phir TATA BYE- BYE kahakar nikal lo.....

Khuda aapko apni amaan me rakhe.........
Ufaq saab agar koii gustaakhi huee hai toh muaafee ka arzmand rahunga
bahas mahej knowledge sharing ke aadhaar par hi kii thee magar pataa nahi tha ki anjaam ye hoga .

Aur yeh bahas vaise bhii zyada out of track jaa rahi hai. mudda kuch aur hai aur bahas kisii aur mudde ko lekar ho rahii hai toh wo bhii thik nahi hai.

toh main mudde pe aate haiN aur iis bahas ko yahiN khatam karte haiN.

Ufaq saab aap please bura na maaneN aur aapkii raae kaayam karte raheN



ख़ुदा परेशां तेरी बला से तेरे सितम से तेरे अधम से
अगर हसीँ होते ज़ुल्म तेरे तू भी तो कुछ शर्मसार होता



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19th June 2014, 01:41 PM

Zidd saahab aur ufaq saahab... sabse pahle to main aapka shukriyaa adaa karta hoon jo aap dono ne is debate ko itna interesting banaya aur hame bahot si cheezen sunne seekhne ko mileen...

agar ham baat karen healthy debate ki to ye ek bahot hi acchii shuruaat huii hai SDC me, aap jaise aalaa shayaron ki sohbat me hamaare un sawaalon ke jawaab bhi mil jaate hain jo kahin dil ke kone me chupe rahte hain....

ab aggar us sher ki baat karen to har insaan ka ek alag poiint of view hota hai kisi sher ko dekhne samajhne ka.. magar har insaan ka ek hi POV ho ye zarurii nahi hotaa ye to ham jaante hi hain... to behtar hai ke Ghalib ke liye meer aur daagh aapas me kyun uljheN, behtar ho ke wo khud apne hunar se mahfil ko jagmagaate rahen.....

Zidd saahab jaisa ke muddaa tha sahii sher ke hone kii wajhon ka to zainy ne pahle hi usse conclude kar diyaa hai, main fir se ek baar kar deta hoon..


ek sahi sher ke liye ye zaruri hai.

1]Har ek sher meN kaafiye aur radeef (agar ho toh) sahii hone chaahiye
2] ki sher har haalaat me metered ho, yani ki behrband ho.
3] grammar bilkul sahi ho .
4] sher bharti ke lafzo se aazaad ho.
5]sher ke lafz , usme darj jazbaat se zyada na bole ya chillayen.
6]sher Ke Dino misro Me ek rabt hona chaahiye


agar aapko lagta hai ke inke alawa koi aur cheez hai jo sher ko khaariz kar saktii hai to please add karen....

ab agla step ye hona chahiye ke misaal ke taur pe kuch sher aap aise likhiye jo in 6 points ke base pe khariz ho... jaise ex 1 me koi sher jo point 1 ki wajah se khariz ho , similarly for each points ek sher.... isse members ko in points ki samajh aur bhi bareeki se aa jaaegii....

aur ufaq saahab aapko poora haq hai, even har member ko haq hai ke wo apna point kisi bhi samay rakh skte hain ke wo sahmat hai ya nahii...

lets make this thing running more smoothly.. hoping for the cooperation from you all..

thanks,

Shaad...


Shaad...
   
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19th June 2014, 03:36 PM

I agree with shaad sahab. ..lets move on to next topic...

Zidd sahab ..ufaq sahab....dono se request hai....




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19th June 2014, 03:57 PM

Zainy tumne to hum kund zehno.n keliye bahot hi achchi thread banai hai thnx a lot dear

zidd, ufaq aur aadil ki post padhi aur unki behes bazi bhi dekhi but i dont think their discussions are irrelevant infact inki behes kafi informative hai. Haan but healthy discussion honi chahiye

@Zidd & Ufaq....guruji apke charan kidhar hain aplog ki knowledge ka overdose mil raha hai humein be easy on us.
   
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20th June 2014, 09:45 AM

Jab subjective questions honge aur unpar debate hogi to saba apna alag opinion hona aa baat hai.
there is no perfect reply to anything
as there is no such thing as a perfect definition/explanation.

to yaha par kuch clash hona natural hai ideas ka , aur interpretations ka.

zainyji agar ye sisilisla aapko theek nahi lagta , to aap sawaal ijiye aur jawaab dene wale ka naam bata dijiye us sawaal ka...phir vo member jawaab de and u move to next question with another members turn to answer.
   
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20th June 2014, 10:50 AM

Quote:
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Jab subjective questions honge aur unpar debate hogi to saba apna alag opinion hona aa baat hai.
there is no perfect reply to anything
as there is no such thing as a perfect definition/explanation.

to yaha par kuch clash hona natural hai ideas ka , aur interpretations ka.

zainyji agar ye sisilisla aapko theek nahi lagta , to aap sawaal ijiye aur jawaab dene wale ka naam bata dijiye us sawaal ka...phir vo member jawaab de and u move to next question with another members turn to answer.
Main aapki baat samajh gayi zidd sahab. ..per is tarah se to knowledge limited ho jaayegi. ..

lekin jo masla paida hua hai uska hal bhi zaruri main aaj hi kuch rules post karti huun...taaki kisi ko koi confusion na ho aur koi misunderstanding na ho

Chaliye agle sawaal ki taraf badhte hain


Words ke correct spelling aur pronunciation kaise pata chale? kyunki spelling se behr per farq padhta hai..

ex:dunia,duniya ,dunya...which one is correct..???




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20th June 2014, 11:41 AM

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Main aapki baat samajh gayi zidd sahab. ..per is tarah se to knowledge limited ho jaayegi. ..

lekin jo masla paida hua hai uska hal bhi zaruri main aaj hi kuch rules post karti huun...taaki kisi ko koi confusion na ho aur koi misunderstanding na ho

Chaliye agle sawaal ki taraf badhte hain


Words ke correct spelling aur pronunciation kaise pata chale? kyunki spelling se behr per farq padhta hai..

ex:dunia,duniya ,dunya...which one is correct..???


yaha actually rules ki zaruat nahi hai.......agar karna hi hai to ek hi rule kaafi hai mere hisaab se...

wahi participate kare jo debate karna chahe...is thread ka naam hai 'sawaal jawaab'...so vo hota rahega.

sirf koi informative baat batani hai kisiko, ya koi shayri ya shayar se related koi anecdoe/qissa to dusra thread to ban hi sakta hai.

------------------------------------------

zainyji , there are many transliteration guides for this purpose

is tarah se sahi spelling batana imposiible hai.
also spelling differs when transliterarted from hindi and urdu.

jaha tal behr ka ta'aluq hai spelling se..to agar word known hai to koi prob nahi..kyui behr sound consider karta hai , spelling nahi...

magar agar word unknown hai to problem uthna zahir hai...aur iska koi ilaaj nahi hai...ya to sab ek standard transliteration schedule follow karen...jo ki impossible hai ya to bus kisi se pooch hi sakte hai.

ek chota solution ye ho sakta hai , jo kabhi kabhi kaam aa jaaye
vo hai - platts jaisi dictionary try kar sakte hai...50 percent useful hai aapke bataye problem solve karne me.

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20th June 2014, 01:12 PM

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Originally Posted by zidd View Post
yaha actually rules ki zaruat nahi hai.......agar karna hi hai to ek hi rule kaafi hai mere hisaab se...

wahi participate kare jo debate karna chahe...is thread ka naam hai 'sawaal jawaab'...so vo hota rahega.

sirf koi informative baat batani hai kisiko, ya koi shayri ya shayar se related koi anecdoe/qissa to dusra thread to ban hi sakta hai.


------------------------------------------

zainyji , there are many transliteration guides for this purpose

is tarah se sahi spelling batana imposiible hai.
also spelling differs when transliterarted from hindi and urdu.

jaha tal behr ka ta'aluq hai spelling se..to agar word known hai to koi prob nahi..kyui behr sound consider karta hai , spelling nahi...

magar agar word unknown hai to problem uthna zahir hai...aur iska koi ilaaj nahi hai...ya to sab ek standard transliteration schedule follow karen...jo ki impossible hai ya to bus kisi se pooch hi sakte hai.

ek chota solution ye ho sakta hai , jo kabhi kabhi kaam aa jaaye
vo hai - platts jaisi dictionary try kar sakte hai...50 percent useful hai aapke bataye problem solve karne me.
Teri Mehfil Tere Jalwe Phir taqaaza Kya Zaroor,
Le Utha Jaata hoon Zaalim Le Chala Jaata Hoon Main.

Last edited by ufaq; 20th June 2014 at 01:17 PM..
   
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20th June 2014, 01:42 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by ufaq View Post
Teri Mehfil Tere Jalwe Phir taqaaza Kya Zaroor,
Le Utha Jaata hoon Zaalim Le Chala Jaata Hoon Main.
aap to kuch zyada hi touchy ho rahe hai . aur aap narazgi zahir kar rahe hai , jabki mai bahut restraint lekar chal raha hu.

agar aap discussion padenge to shayad aapko lage ki maine jo kuch kaha debate ke andar kaha jabki aapne personallly bahut berukhi ki...aapne mujhe debate me reply kiya aur next reply post kiya tata bye bye....jisse mai apke first reply ka jawaab na de saku...aur maine nahi bhi diya. itna restraint rakha maine.

jawaab sirf 2 link hota , aur kuch nahi, ...itna simple tha jawaab dena..magar maine nahi kiya vo kaam. paraphrase karna english to hindi mere liye koi bahut badi baat nahi thi un 2 link ka.

all the while u conducted urself as if u are doing us some favour by saying something, that too prematurely. coz we are going through the basics.

aap ek zimmedaar govt . officer hai bhai....lets debate it out...ye roothna manana kyu?

aaiye ek contructive debate kare..ye to sabko bolne ka haq hai ki' i dont agree with ur point of view'.

isme itna emotional hone ka kya hai...kisiko personally nahi kaha jaa raha hai..use point of viewse difference hai..usse nahi...aap dono bato ko ek hi nazariye se mat dekhiye.

come, its a good start...join and contribute...
   
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Rules of this thread! - 20th June 2014, 02:52 PM

SOME RULES AND GUIDELINES OF THIS THREAD



Is section me sawaal post karne waale shayaroN se hamari guzaarish hai ke, jawaab dene waale members ka ehteraam kareiN, unki baat ko sune, samjhe, jawaab dene waale member ka maqsad sirf aapki madad karna hai

Jawaab dene waale members se hamari guzaarish hai ke sirf shayar ki madad ka khayaal dil meiN ho,apnapan aur shayar ki izzat ka khayaal rakheiN, apna lehjaa dostaana rakeiN.

kuch guidelines haiN , jise agar hum sab follow kareiN to ye section sab ke liye faayde’maNd saabit hoga

General guidlines
----------------------------

1] kindly keep the atmosphere formal and stay on the topic as much as possible.

2] Discussion sirf aur sirf us sawaal par ho jo saamne hai.

3] Is section meiN kisi qism ki general discussion aur chit-chat allowed nahiiN hai

4]Ek sawaal par jitne chahe utne member jawaab de sakte haiN, yeh sawaal karne waale member ka privilege hai kise kitna maane, yaad rahe yeh ek peer group review hai ,yaani ki ek field ke equal standing members ka review hai.


sawaal karne aur jawaab dene waale, donoN se hamari guzaarish yahi rahegi ke, yahaaN pyaar, khuloos, mohabbat se baat ki jaaye, hum sab yahaaN kuch na kuch seekhne ke liye jamaa hue haiN aur iski koi fees nahiiN hai ...





Zainy


PalkoN ki baand ko tod ke daaman pe aa gira
Ek aaNsu mere zabt ki tauheen kar gaya...

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21st June 2014, 09:29 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by zainy View Post
SOME RULES AND GUIDELINES OF THIS THREAD



Is section me sawaal post karne waale shayaroN se hamari guzaarish hai ke, jawaab dene waale members ka ehteraam kareiN, unki baat ko sune, samjhe, jawaab dene waale member ka maqsad sirf aapki madad karna hai

Jawaab dene waale members se hamari guzaarish hai ke sirf shayar ki madad ka khayaal dil meiN ho,apnapan aur shayar ki izzat ka khayaal rakheiN, apna lehjaa dostaana rakeiN.

kuch guidelines haiN , jise agar hum sab follow kareiN to ye section sab ke liye faayde’maNd saabit hoga

General guidlines
----------------------------

1] kindly keep the atmosphere formal and stay on the topic as much as possible.

2] Discussion sirf aur sirf us sawaal par ho jo saamne hai.

3] Is section meiN kisi qism ki general discussion aur chit-chat allowed nahiiN hai

4]Ek sawaal par jitne chahe utne member jawaab de sakte haiN, yeh sawaal karne waale member ka privilege hai kise kitna maane, yaad rahe yeh ek peer group review hai ,yaani ki ek field ke equal standing members ka review hai.


sawaal karne aur jawaab dene waale, donoN se hamari guzaarish yahi rahegi ke, yahaaN pyaar, khuloos, mohabbat se baat ki jaaye, hum sab yahaaN kuch na kuch seekhne ke liye jamaa hue haiN aur iski koi fees nahiiN hai ...

i apppreciate zainy.....................

keep going Zidd saahab and members aap ssab se bhii yahi appeal hai ke apne apne sawaalon ke saath aagee aayen.....

Chaliye mera ek sawaal aap sab se.... multiple views are most invited.


ghazal me ek cheez hotiii hai khayaal..... to aapke hisaab se ghazal me kin khayaalon ko tavvajjoh di jaatii hai... kitne tarah ke khayaalon ko ghazal me shaamil kiyaa jaa sakta hai....

Shaad....


Shaad...
   
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21st June 2014, 10:27 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by sameer'shaad' View Post
i apppreciate zainy.....................

keep going Zidd saahab and members aap ssab se bhii yahi appeal hai ke apne apne sawaalon ke saath aagee aayen.....

Chaliye mera ek sawaal aap sab se.... multiple views are most invited.


ghazal me ek cheez hotiii hai khayaal..... to aapke hisaab se ghazal me kin khayaalon ko tavvajjoh di jaatii hai... kitne tarah ke khayaalon ko ghazal me shaamil kiyaa jaa sakta hai....

Shaad....
aisa sawaal karte ho jiska jawaab dene me ek volume bhar jayega....

zara chote chote sawaal karo bhai...waise maine is sawaal par work shuru kiya hai...hopefully 1 mahine me jawaab de paunga...

i cannot make a loose reply.

this questions stays...

others are free to ask further questions to our members.
   
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22nd June 2014, 02:47 PM

Khayalon ki to koii limitations nahin hoti i think lekin dekhte hain zidd ne wada kiya hai to i think he'll get an answer for this.

Mera sawaal ye hai ki ghazal kitni bold hosakti hai?

Expression of physical desire exist in english poetries but what about ghazals, is their any such thing like bold ghazal?

Aur agar hai to where to draw line, hadh kaise tai karein?

How to differentiate between direct and indirect expression.

PS: Please mere sawaal ko seriously liya jaye mai kabhi kabhi hi serious hoti hun
   
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22nd June 2014, 04:47 PM

ALL BLUE FONNTS ARE MINE : ALL BLACK FONTS ARE NAAZ

Naaz aadaab.

waise to koi bhi aapko reply kar sakta hai , magar mujhe shak hai ki ye sawaal specially mujhse hi poocha jaa raha hai, isliye mai mere opinion yaha rakhta hu.


Khayalon ki to koii limitations nahin hoti i think lekin dekhte hain zidd ne wada kiya hai to i think he'll get an answer for this.

real life me khayaalo ki koi linitation nahi hai, ye baat to bilkul zahir si hai...its a given fact..nothing new in it.

lekin jab khayaalo ke istemaal ki baat sukhan ke dayre me aati hai to unpar bahut saare rules appicable ho jaate hai. Theek waise hi jaise aap apni car apne compound ke andar kaise bhi chalaiye , kuch bhi stunt kijiye, koi rule nahi...magar jaise hi aap public road par aa gaye to Motor vehicles act ki dhaaraaye aap par lagni shuru ho jati hai.

khayaal sunkhan me actually- themes hai, mafhoom hai...kis genre (type of literature)me kya istemaal ho sakta hai uspar rules hai..isliye maine time manga us sawaal ka jawaab dene ka.




Mera sawaal ye hai ki ghazal kitni bold hosakti hai?

BOLD se yaha shayad matlab ye hai ke - kitne darje private relationships ke jo manifestations hai, use qalamband kar sakte hai....

aap poochna chaa rahin hai ke sher kitna bold ho - par uspar obcenity ka ilzaam na lage...

there is no objective yardstick to measure it.

take for example ROTHS TEST...it is so subjective.
whether to the average person, applying contemporary community standards, the dominant theme of the material taken as a whole appeals to prurient interest.


when you are on vacation you may also read my article
'ghazals- a female writers perspective'...it may answer a few questions of yours , i guess.



Expression of physical desire exist in english poetries but what about ghazals, is their any such thing like bold ghazal?

ghazal is all about love and desire( ot atleast used to be). the desire can take many forms ..we have more about love, longing, desire in our literature than maybe the english.
the difference is in the mode of expression vis a vis english poetry.
peculiarities of our language , expression of idioms , syntax and verbs render our saying the same things ,which the english say - a tad bit soft in feel than the english.
also english sensibilities differ than ours , thats why i gave the ROTHS TEST above.


Aur agar hai to where to draw line, hadh kaise tai karein?

this question can only be answered by the writer.. sensibilities differ , thats why there is litigation . arundhati roy was pressed with obscenity charges in Supreme court , for some passages in her book - 'The god of small things'...she won the suit , but lost her career. she was never able to write a book after that.

How to differentiate between direct and indirect expression.

a very very difficult question to answer..

Zulfe ,seena , naaf , qamar
ek nadi me kitne bhaNwar...jaanisaar akhtar(if i remember correctly)

here the poet has explicitly used words which identify the human organs.

so it cannot be said that direct words using body parts cannot be used.

mere khayaal se jawaab is at a mental level...i think ur question again demands an enquiry into -sensual,erotic,amourous versus Carnal.

par phir bhi ek musibat hai....all ghazals of 'longing for the beloved/mate' is carnal at a mental level.

to kya iska matlab hai ki mental level par(indirecty) sher carnal ho sakta hai..magar lafzo me nahi hona chaiye?...phir to shayri hi nahi hogi.



lastly (for the moment matlab -this breif reply was just to acknowledge ur question, i may come back later again )
yu shayad kahna galat nahi hoga ki any sher which depicts the specific acts of carnal in real deed or the intent of it , directly or even in metaphors and puns( dada konkde style) may be considered as too bold as to make it unadmissible in the mould of a ghazal , specially a ghazal following a classical pattern.




PS: Please mere sawaal ko seriously liya jaye mai kabhi kabhi hi serious hoti hun

mujhe pata hai ye sawaal mujhse tha , isliye bina taiyyari ke turunt hazir ho gaya. poore 15 minute lage ye reply dene me..ab aap hi sochiye maine kitna serious liya hoga aapka sawaal.

--------------------------------

your sher is admitted, i see my folly clearly now. it might have a place in the ghazal format...

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23rd June 2014, 11:33 AM

Tumhara shaq bilkul sahi hai ye sawaal tumhare liye hi tha aur to koii iska jawab denese raha


Waise achcha jawab diya tumne humein pasand aya hum khush hue


Mere sawaal ko seriously lene keliye shukriya, waise pm me bhi puch sakti thi lekin is thread par post badhana tha

Quote:
Originally Posted by zidd View Post

mujhe pata hai ye sawaal mujhse tha , isliye bina taiyyari ke turunt hazir ho gaya. poore 15 minute lage ye reply dene me..ab aap hi sochiye maine kitna serious liya hoga aapka sawaal.
Achcha hua bina taiyari ke jawab diye.....puri taiyari ke sath dete to overdose hojata


Quote:
your sher is admitted, i see my folly clearly now. it might have a place in the ghazal format...


Hatim tai ki qabar pe laat maar rahe ho? Mission accomplished
   
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26th June 2014, 12:03 PM

i have a question..
kya kavita ka bhi behar se sambandh hota hai....



एक हाथ में दिल उनके एक हाथ में खंजर था
चेहरे पे दोस्त का मुखौटा अजीब सा मंजर था

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26th June 2014, 12:56 PM

sabhi ko namskaar...........
maiN behar ke baare meiN nahi jaantaa huN , sikhne ki bhi koshish ki lekin samjh nhi aayaa.kuch tuti-phuti gazal likhi bhi lekin behar me nahi .....
urdu ki jaankaari nahi hai. esliye hindi rachnaaye likhne ki koshish kartaa huN
.



mere kuch sawaal haiN,

kya kavita ka bhi behar se koi sambandh hota hai.... ?(Aru g ne puchhaa meraa bhi yahi ek sawaal)


kyaa kavitaa likhne ke bhi koi rule hai.... ??

geet kyaa hotaa hai ? aur use kaise likhaa jaataa hai ?

kuch logo ki maine bahut laMbi laMbi rachnaaye padhi haiN, jisme har line meiN do ya teen hi saBd hote hai .
us taRah ki rachnaa ko kyaa kahaa jaataa hai ??


maNzil pr nazar rakhtaa huN
zaari apnaa safar rakhtaa huN !!

===========================


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26th June 2014, 01:19 PM

Rajeevji aur Arvindji,

aapke savaal ka jawaab shaayad aapko niche kii link pe mil jaayega
http://www.shayri.com/forums/showthread.php?t=54153

Mayankji ne rachnaoN ke pehloo ko bahut hi achchhi tarah samjhaayaa hai



ख़ुदा परेशां तेरी बला से तेरे सितम से तेरे अधम से
अगर हसीँ होते ज़ुल्म तेरे तू भी तो कुछ शर्मसार होता



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26th June 2014, 03:30 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rajeev Sharma View Post
sabhi ko namskaar...........
maiN behar ke baare meiN nahi jaantaa huN , sikhne ki bhi koshish ki lekin samjh nhi aayaa.kuch tuti-phuti gazal likhi bhi lekin behar me nahi .....
urdu ki jaankaari nahi hai. esliye hindi rachnaaye likhne ki koshish kartaa huN
Rajeevji,

aap kavitaeN bahot hi sunder likhte haiN. ghazal writing kii techniques ke baare meN ek saral samajh ke liye meN niche dii gayee link ko reference ke taur pe istemaal karta hooN..
http://www.columbia.edu/itc/mealac/p...00_index.html?

shaayad aapko bhii kaam aaye

aur beher koii bahot mushkeel cheez nahi hai.. bas hum use mushkeel banaate haiN..

yuN samajhiye ki jab aap kavita likhte haiN toh usme bhale aapko kisee dhun bithane kii zarurat nahi hai, magar phir bhii ek la.ya honee zaroori hai.. jaise Bhagvaticharan Verma kii ek kavita se yeh panktiyaN..

यह हृदय की भेंट है, स्वीकार हो
आज यौवन का सुमुखि, अभिसार हो ।


aap dekh sakte haiN ki dono panktiyaN la.ya m haiN.. toh jab aap kavita likhte haiN toh aap hamesha panktiyoN ko ek la.ya meN lane ke liye ek pankti se dusree pankti ko milane kii koshish karte haiN.. iske liye aap harek akshar ko todte haiN.. not as written but as spoken (pronunciation ke hisaab se)..
jaise upar kii panktiyaN..
yeh = likha hai 'ye' + 'h', phir bhii ek hi syllable hai.
hriday = 'hri' + 'da' +'y', phir bhii syllable honge 2; 'hri' & 'day'.

bas isee tarah se taktee bantee hai...
ab jab aap inhii aksharoN ka uchchaar karte haiN toh har akshar kii length rehti hai.. jaise..
'hriday' meN, 'hri' ka uchchar chhota hai, toh beher ke liye uskii taktee chhoti hotii hai.. use aasaani se samajhne ke liye hum kahenge kii uskii taktee '1' kii hai.. aur 'day', lambi taktee hai toh hum yuN kahenge ki uskee digital taktee '2' hai. vaise; yeh numbering, failatun, tantanatan, kuch bhii use kariye, aakheer meN yeh samajhna hai ki, taktee bolte vaqt chhoti hai ya badi hai, bas.

Maine jo link dii hai use refer kariye, mere khayaal me aapka kaam aasaan ho jaayega



ख़ुदा परेशां तेरी बला से तेरे सितम से तेरे अधम से
अगर हसीँ होते ज़ुल्म तेरे तू भी तो कुछ शर्मसार होता



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26th June 2014, 06:25 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by aru View Post
i have a question..
kya kavita ka bhi behar se sambandh hota hai....
aruji -e aur aisa sawaal darj hua hai...

dono reply saath me karta hu

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27th June 2014, 06:46 PM

sabhi ko namskaar...........

namaste bhai

maiN behar ke baare meiN nahi jaantaa huN , sikhne ki bhi koshish ki lekin samjh nhi aayaa.kuch tuti-phuti gazal likhi bhi lekin behar me nahi .....
urdu ki jaankaari nahi hai. esliye hindi rachnaaye likhne ki koshish kartaa huN


dono bahut alag alag hai..ghazal and kavita...totally different




mere kuch sawaal haiN,

kya kavita ka bhi behar se koi sambandh hota hai.... ?(Aru g ne puchhaa meraa bhi yahi ek sawaal)


dono ka meter bhi alag alag hai magar phir bhi koi convergence kahi kahi kuch hadd tak ahi kahi hai....but that is only for a very advanced practitioner.

ek breif technical discusion kiya jaaye to nateeja ye niklega ki urdu meters are complicated. hindi meters are very simple.

dusra ye ke there are anginat(infinite) hindi meters , where as urdu meters are very small in. numbers.

uska kaaran ye hai ki hindi meter ke banne ki jo prakriya hai , usi ko kavi istemaal karta hai. urdu me meter banne ki prakriya par shayar dhyan nahi deta , kyuki sab meters ban chuke hai. urdu shayar is just following a rule.

--------------------------------------
--------a disjointed (dhundhla sa) view for technically minded----

koi kahega ki sab meter kaise ban chuke?..mai to apna meter 12 12 ke combination karke kabhi bhi bana sakta hu.? magar this is not the case. urdu meter derive hua hai arkano se, jiske paoo(feet) alfaaz ke wazn ke combination se bane hai...us feet ko ek wheel( chakra) me fit kiya gaya...jise kahte hai 'khalil's wheel' aur us wheel ko ghuma ghuma kar( not literally, but even if someone really makes a wheel and writes the 8 basic feet as a first layer,and the second, he will arrive at new meters , when the wheel is turned internally)..zahafat milti hai
..in english though there is no wheel ,this exercise is called catalexis.

hindi me sanskrit/prakrit/pali and almost all south indian languages have a way of catalexis.. sanskrit has the simplest...
from which hindi borrows meters.
magar kavita me emphasis 'matra' par hai ( the same thing in urdu will be called -emphasis on vazn of a consonant(and not the word group-takhti)

but hindi stops here and the meter is made ,
whereas for urdu that is just a starting point ...pahle watad ya sabab- then sakin ya mutharik- then wazn of CONSoNANT - then combination - then afaii- then zihaaf ...its an alaborate process.

so anyone knowing just a few very basic rules can write hindi poetry in meter, coz only the total wazn of a line is taken into account.

sirf total matra ka physical count same hona chaiye to be in meter.

ise kahte hai chandbaddh hona , means chand = meter and badd = band
beherband=chandbadh.

---------------------------------------------------------------




.

kyaa kavitaa likhne ke bhi koi rule hai.... ??

jee , rajeevji. kavita likhne ka bhi apna ek alag rule hai.





geet kyaa hotaa hai ? aur use kaise likhaa jaataa hai ?

kuch logo ki maine bahut laMbi laMbi rachnaaye padhi haiN, jisme har line meiN do ya teen hi saBd hote hai .
us taRah ki rachnaa ko kyaa kahaa jaataa hai ??

geet ko koi classification nahi khapta.

urdu classification me 'geet' included nahi kyuki vo koi partivular rule follow nahi karta , isliye nazm bhi nahi kaha jaa sakta.( nasr nazm yani free verse chod kar, magar geet free verse bhi nahi hai..

hindi kavya shastra me geet ka koi classification nahi kyuki geet generally urdu meters follow karta hai.hindi meter bhi loosely speaking ,urdu meter hi hai, kyuki hindi me hindi meter naam ki koi cheez nahi..haa urdu me zarur hindi meter hai..magar iska matlab ye nahi ki vo meter- hindi se aya hai...jab vo meter aaya tab hindi thi hi nahi...uska matlab sirf ye hai ki vo meter typical arabic meter nahi hai ,jisne meter formation ke rules follow kiye hon
aisa kahna hai ki vo laghu -guru matra syatem follow karta hai , isliye hindi meter hai.

jo padya(poetry) gayi jaaye vo geet hai.so it is uncassifiable in hindi too.

-----
ab aate hai iske rules par.

zahir hai jab classification nahi to koi pukhta rule bhi nahi hoga..koi rigid rule nahi hai
magar over a period of time , due to bollywood , kuch conventions establish ho gaye hai.

ab yaha par lagta hai classify karna hoga mujhe lol
old versions
new version

chunki new version is still work under process , one may feel free to do anything...absolutly nothing is required , than i guess a good punch line.

old version me kuch precedents hai

lines can follow any meter in one composition, means different lines in one geet can have different meters.BUT THERE IS TO BE A METER, cutting the existing meter into parts , not recognised is not only allowed, its actually the norm.

actually it is for practical reasons, kyuki dhun set karne me madad milti hai agar lines rhythm me ho to.

slight infractions are allowed... the 'aakaaar' of a letter is more important than the wazn. paapaa and dumdum may have the same wazn, but the resonance with the given tabla beat( which is the standard beat) in the given tune is the judging criteria..this is called aakaar.

more than the meter, in a geet , the arkaan cutting is important.coz that helps the music accompanying it easier to make and symmetrical.
it is quite usual to make the music first ...in that case all the above count with more force..kyuki the poet is working with a bandish.

----------------


by no means anything is completly said here. u are free to ask clarifications.

i am sorry its a complete hodge podge..but to write in as few lines as possible imposes restraints.
aap jab sawaal karenge particularly...to sab clear ho jayega ..jo bhi unclear lag raha hai
   
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27th June 2014, 07:44 PM

thanx a lot zidd g,........aapne bahut tareeke se har cheez samjhayi hai....thoda hodge podge to hai but yet it is understandable........
Mujhe umeed hai kee rajeev aur doosre log bhi iska laabh uthayenge....



एक हाथ में दिल उनके एक हाथ में खंजर था
चेहरे पे दोस्त का मुखौटा अजीब सा मंजर था

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Rajeev Sharma
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30th June 2014, 10:11 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by aadeil View Post
Rajeevji,

aap kavitaeN bahot hi sunder likhte haiN. ghazal writing kii techniques ke baare meN ek saral samajh ke liye meN niche dii gayee link ko reference ke taur pe istemaal karta hooN..
http://www.columbia.edu/itc/mealac/p...00_index.html?

shaayad aapko bhii kaam aaye

aur beher koii bahot mushkeel cheez nahi hai.. bas hum use mushkeel banaate haiN..

yuN samajhiye ki jab aap kavita likhte haiN toh usme bhale aapko kisee dhun bithane kii zarurat nahi hai, magar phir bhii ek la.ya honee zaroori hai.. jaise Bhagvaticharan Verma kii ek kavita se yeh panktiyaN..

यह हृदय की भेंट है, स्वीकार हो
आज यौवन का सुमुखि, अभिसार हो ।


aap dekh sakte haiN ki dono panktiyaN la.ya m haiN.. toh jab aap kavita likhte haiN toh aap hamesha panktiyoN ko ek la.ya meN lane ke liye ek pankti se dusree pankti ko milane kii koshish karte haiN.. iske liye aap harek akshar ko todte haiN.. not as written but as spoken (pronunciation ke hisaab se)..
jaise upar kii panktiyaN..
yeh = likha hai 'ye' + 'h', phir bhii ek hi syllable hai.
hriday = 'hri' + 'da' +'y', phir bhii syllable honge 2; 'hri' & 'day'.

bas isee tarah se taktee bantee hai...
ab jab aap inhii aksharoN ka uchchaar karte haiN toh har akshar kii length rehti hai.. jaise..
'hriday' meN, 'hri' ka uchchar chhota hai, toh beher ke liye uskii taktee chhoti hotii hai.. use aasaani se samajhne ke liye hum kahenge kii uskii taktee '1' kii hai.. aur 'day', lambi taktee hai toh hum yuN kahenge ki uskee digital taktee '2' hai. vaise; yeh numbering, failatun, tantanatan, kuch bhii use kariye, aakheer meN yeh samajhna hai ki, taktee bolte vaqt chhoti hai ya badi hai, bas.

Maine jo link dii hai use refer kariye, mere khayaal me aapka kaam aasaan ho jaayega
aadeil ji bahut bahut shukriyaa jankaari dene kaa ...........................


maNzil pr nazar rakhtaa huN
zaari apnaa safar rakhtaa huN !!

===========================


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Rajeev Sharma
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30th June 2014, 10:15 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by zidd View Post
sabhi ko namskaar...........

namaste bhai

maiN behar ke baare meiN nahi jaantaa huN , sikhne ki bhi koshish ki lekin samjh nhi aayaa.kuch tuti-phuti gazal likhi bhi lekin behar me nahi .....
urdu ki jaankaari nahi hai. esliye hindi rachnaaye likhne ki koshish kartaa huN


dono bahut alag alag hai..ghazal and kavita...totally different




mere kuch sawaal haiN,

kya kavita ka bhi behar se koi sambandh hota hai.... ?(Aru g ne puchhaa meraa bhi yahi ek sawaal)


dono ka meter bhi alag alag hai magar phir bhi koi convergence kahi kahi kuch hadd tak ahi kahi hai....but that is only for a very advanced practitioner.

ek breif technical discusion kiya jaaye to nateeja ye niklega ki urdu meters are complicated. hindi meters are very simple.

dusra ye ke there are anginat(infinite) hindi meters , where as urdu meters are very small in. numbers.

uska kaaran ye hai ki hindi meter ke banne ki jo prakriya hai , usi ko kavi istemaal karta hai. urdu me meter banne ki prakriya par shayar dhyan nahi deta , kyuki sab meters ban chuke hai. urdu shayar is just following a rule.

--------------------------------------
--------a disjointed (dhundhla sa) view for technically minded----

koi kahega ki sab meter kaise ban chuke?..mai to apna meter 12 12 ke combination karke kabhi bhi bana sakta hu.? magar this is not the case. urdu meter derive hua hai arkano se, jiske paoo(feet) alfaaz ke wazn ke combination se bane hai...us feet ko ek wheel( chakra) me fit kiya gaya...jise kahte hai 'khalil's wheel' aur us wheel ko ghuma ghuma kar( not literally, but even if someone really makes a wheel and writes the 8 basic feet as a first layer,and the second, he will arrive at new meters , when the wheel is turned internally)..zahafat milti hai
..in english though there is no wheel ,this exercise is called catalexis.

hindi me sanskrit/prakrit/pali and almost all south indian languages have a way of catalexis.. sanskrit has the simplest...
from which hindi borrows meters.
magar kavita me emphasis 'matra' par hai ( the same thing in urdu will be called -emphasis on vazn of a consonant(and not the word group-takhti)

but hindi stops here and the meter is made ,
whereas for urdu that is just a starting point ...pahle watad ya sabab- then sakin ya mutharik- then wazn of CONSoNANT - then combination - then afaii- then zihaaf ...its an alaborate process.

so anyone knowing just a few very basic rules can write hindi poetry in meter, coz only the total wazn of a line is taken into account.

sirf total matra ka physical count same hona chaiye to be in meter.

ise kahte hai chandbaddh hona , means chand = meter and badd = band
beherband=chandbadh.

---------------------------------------------------------------




.

kyaa kavitaa likhne ke bhi koi rule hai.... ??

jee , rajeevji. kavita likhne ka bhi apna ek alag rule hai.





geet kyaa hotaa hai ? aur use kaise likhaa jaataa hai ?

kuch logo ki maine bahut laMbi laMbi rachnaaye padhi haiN, jisme har line meiN do ya teen hi saBd hote hai .
us taRah ki rachnaa ko kyaa kahaa jaataa hai ??

geet ko koi classification nahi khapta.

urdu classification me 'geet' included nahi kyuki vo koi partivular rule follow nahi karta , isliye nazm bhi nahi kaha jaa sakta.( nasr nazm yani free verse chod kar, magar geet free verse bhi nahi hai..

hindi kavya shastra me geet ka koi classification nahi kyuki geet generally urdu meters follow karta hai.hindi meter bhi loosely speaking ,urdu meter hi hai, kyuki hindi me hindi meter naam ki koi cheez nahi..haa urdu me zarur hindi meter hai..magar iska matlab ye nahi ki vo meter- hindi se aya hai...jab vo meter aaya tab hindi thi hi nahi...uska matlab sirf ye hai ki vo meter typical arabic meter nahi hai ,jisne meter formation ke rules follow kiye hon
aisa kahna hai ki vo laghu -guru matra syatem follow karta hai , isliye hindi meter hai.

jo padya(poetry) gayi jaaye vo geet hai.so it is uncassifiable in hindi too.

-----
ab aate hai iske rules par.

zahir hai jab classification nahi to koi pukhta rule bhi nahi hoga..koi rigid rule nahi hai
magar over a period of time , due to bollywood , kuch conventions establish ho gaye hai.

ab yaha par lagta hai classify karna hoga mujhe lol
old versions
new version

chunki new version is still work under process , one may feel free to do anything...absolutly nothing is required , than i guess a good punch line.

old version me kuch precedents hai

lines can follow any meter in one composition, means different lines in one geet can have different meters.BUT THERE IS TO BE A METER, cutting the existing meter into parts , not recognised is not only allowed, its actually the norm.

actually it is for practical reasons, kyuki dhun set karne me madad milti hai agar lines rhythm me ho to.

slight infractions are allowed... the 'aakaaar' of a letter is more important than the wazn. paapaa and dumdum may have the same wazn, but the resonance with the given tabla beat( which is the standard beat) in the given tune is the judging criteria..this is called aakaar.

more than the meter, in a geet , the arkaan cutting is important.coz that helps the music accompanying it easier to make and symmetrical.
it is quite usual to make the music first ...in that case all the above count with more force..kyuki the poet is working with a bandish.

----------------


by no means anything is completly said here. u are free to ask clarifications.

i am sorry its a complete hodge podge..but to write in as few lines as possible imposes restraints.
aap jab sawaal karenge particularly...to sab clear ho jayega ..jo bhi unclear lag raha hai

zidd ji namskaar ................
aapke dWaara di gyi jaankaari hm sabhi ke liye bahut hi mahTvpurN hai....
aapkaa dil se dhaNywaad itni saari jaankaari dene ke liye.............



mere ek sawaal ka jawaab nhi milaa ... plzz bataayeN

Quote:
kuch logo ki maine bahut laMbi laMbi rachnaaye padhi haiN, jisme har line meiN do ya teen hi saBd hote hai .
us taRah ki rachnaa ko kyaa kahaa jaataa hai ??


maNzil pr nazar rakhtaa huN
zaari apnaa safar rakhtaa huN !!

===========================


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9th July 2014, 11:07 AM

Quote:
mere ek sawaal ka jawaab nhi milaa ... plzz bataayeN

Quote:
kuch logo ki maine bahut laMbi laMbi rachnaaye padhi haiN, jisme har line meiN do ya teen hi saBd hote hai .
us taRah ki rachnaa ko kyaa kahaa jaataa hai ??
is tarah se kisi rachna /tehreer/kalaam ka classification nahi ho sakta...
kuch bhi ho sakti hai...kavita , ghazal etc...


magar usually it will be a free verse (nasr) a prose poem.like a nasri nazm or a modern geet.

i hope that satisfies you.
   
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9th July 2014, 11:45 PM

Mera agla sawaal...ek ghazal me kam se kam kitne ashaar hone chahiye. ..iska koi rule hai? ...ke kam se kam itne hone zaruri hai...warna ghazal nahi kehlaayi jayegi...?..




Zainy


PalkoN ki baand ko tod ke daaman pe aa gira
Ek aaNsu mere zabt ki tauheen kar gaya...

Nm
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10th July 2014, 09:50 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by zainy View Post
Mera agla sawaal...ek ghazal me kam se kam kitne ashaar hone chahiye. ..iska koi rule hai? ...ke kam se kam itne hone zaruri hai...warna ghazal nahi kehlaayi jayegi...?..
iska koi usoolan jawaab nahi hai..matlab koi prescription nahi hai.
hum precedents par hi chal sakte hai, misalo par ,aur ustado ke kahne par.

to nichor ye ke publication ke liye ghazal 5 sher ki ho minimum.

koi maximum limit nahi...purane ustaad maaante the ki jitne qaaafiye hai sab bhar diye jaye..unka maan.na tha ki ye kaha nahi ja sakta ki kaun sa sher unki pehchaan banega...so badi badi ghazal aati thi.

ab jaise printing technology ne writing badal diya aur camera ne painting badal diya, recordings ne ghazal badal diya, specially no. of sher.

ye baat bilkul sahi hai ki tahat me aur tarannnum me sher ka meaning change ho jata hai kyuki rhythm adds to the meaning of the sher.
uska reason ye hai ki hum padte waqt pause le sakte hai kuch samjhne ke liye ,gaur karne ke liye, magar kuch sun rahe hai to ,zahir hai aaap apne mind ko pause nahi de sakte, kyuki singer to gata hi rahega.....that may also be the reason that we like and listen to the same ghazal many times, coz it may give a slightly diff nuance every time.

aaj ke fast mahaul me patience kam hai.islye listerer fatigue na ho -ye khayaal rakkha jata hai , isliye ghazal aur choti ho gayi, the stress is on quality .

agar lambi beher ki ghazal hai to mostly sirf 3 sher hi record honge.
agar medium beher hai to maybe 4.
bahut choti beher , specially small hindi meters hai to 5-6.

but the average norm seems to be 4 ashaar now.

but there is hardly anything fixed. what i said are mean figures...

regards
   
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